Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2021 3:41:48 GMT
I acknowledge that in general, the forum doesn't permit discussion of controversial topics. I have no desire to break the rules but, a) I doubt that anyone will hold a dissenting opinion on this and b) the topic is of the utmost importance and deserves to be revealed to everyone. Here's hoping the moderators see it my way.... I was horrified and disgusted to learn of the discovery of the bodies of over 200 native children at the site of a former residential school in the Kamloops, BC area. I don't know anyone who thinks that the actions that led to the establishment of the residential school system were justifiable. And, I agree with a recent comment that this should be followed up by a thorough scientifically-based forensic examination of all the sites which housed previous residential schools. Further, I believe that the taxpayers should not have to fund the cost of this forensic investigation. I believe it would be only fair and just that the costs of the criminal investigation and forensic examination should be shouldered entirely by the religious organizations that perpetrated this despicable system of residential schools in Canada.
Based on modern perceptions of how totally wrong the residential school system was and the continuing long-term social damage it inflicted on the native population of Canada, there's absolutely no excuse for what's happened....This was a mass murder of Canadian citizens perpetrated on vulnerable children. The religious organizations that participated in the whole sordid mess should be ashamed, should offer sincere apologies to the aboriginal people and should be held totally responsible for the costs involved in the criminal investigation and a thorough scientific forensic examination of all residential school sites. Unless this is closely examined by Canadian government and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we won't ever feel sure that the atrocity in Kamloops isn't just the tip of the iceberg.
I urge all Canadians to contact their MLA's, Members of Parliament, and municipal governments to express this sentiment and press for action to investigate this horrible crime. We can't sweep this under the rug and we can't hold our heads high if we don't deal with this.
|
|
|
Post by infant on Jun 1, 2021 4:07:48 GMT
I don’t think this is controversial. This is a disgusting story that needs to be told to the world.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2021 5:22:39 GMT
Thanks, Rob, for acknowledging how important this story is.
I've spoken with Sonia Furstenau, the leader of the BC Green Party, about this, and will keep trying to do what I can to keep this story current in people's eyes. The native people of Canada were treated shoddily in so many ways over the years and the residential school system is something we all have to feel ashamed of.....Even if we weren't around or involved in it, it's a tragedy that is a stain on a country we'd like to feel proud of.
If you're a Canadian and either an active member of our group, or a forum lurker, it would be a great thing if you can help lobby the government of Canada or the RCMP to investigate this.
|
|
|
Post by johnreardon on Jun 1, 2021 7:44:53 GMT
Shocking stuff. Many Countries have similar murky things in the past. We had something called the Child Migrant programme where children were taken from their parents and sent to places like Australia & Canada. Ok, not as bad as this story appears to be, but still awful and who knows how many kids survived.
|
|
|
Post by Die Bullen on Jun 1, 2021 11:29:01 GMT
I saw this story on my news feed a few days ago- it is almost unimaginable.
I only saw one article on this and clearly this spanned many many years- how recent are the newest remains? Are people responsible still alive?
|
|
|
Post by Colchar on Jun 3, 2021 2:50:22 GMT
Speaking as a Canadian, and a historian, there are some issues here.
They have not excavated the site so they have no idea A) how many bodies are actually there; 2) whether they are children; and 3) what era they come from. All the land in that area used to be native land so this could be a grave from a previous era. I am not saying it is, just that the possibility exists.
Since they have not excavated the site and have no idea how many bodies are actually there, it is highly irresponsible for the media, and anyone else for that matter, to be claiming that there are 215. We do not know that. In fact, we have no idea how many there are. But it fits a narrative so the media, and others, jumped on the story immediately and took the 215 figure as gospel despite there being no evidence pointing to that number.
As for residential schools, they are a complicated issue. Some were horrific places, run by self-righteous church members who were little more than tyrants (or worse). But there are also natives who attended and who say they had good experiences.
As for the language issue (not letting them speak their own languages), to this day full immersion in considered the best way to teach a language. That is why we have french immersion schools here in Canada. In those schools English is banned except during English classes.
So yes, the deaths of children is horrific but we do not know the true facts of what went on at that school in Kamloops nor what is actually in the ground. Until they excavate the site (if they ever do) we will not know and it is irresponsible for people to be repeating information that is not factual.
|
|
|
Post by Die Bullen on Jun 3, 2021 11:13:44 GMT
Speaking as a Canadian, and a historian, there are some issues here. They have not excavated the site so they have no idea A) how many bodies are actually there; 2) whether they are children; and 3) what era they come from. All the land in that area used to be native land so this could be a grave from a previous era. I am not saying it is, just that the possibility exists. Since they have not excavated the site and have no idea how many bodies are actually there, it is highly irresponsible for the media, and anyone else for that matter, to be claiming that there are 215. We do not know that. In fact, we have no idea how many there are. But it fits a narrative so the media, and others, jumped on the story immediately and took the 215 figure as gospel despite there being no evidence pointing to that number. As for residential schools, they are a complicated issue. Some were horrific places, run by self-righteous church members who were little more than tyrants (or worse). But there are also natives who attended and who say they had good experiences. As for the language issue (not letting them speak their own languages), to this day full immersion in considered the best way to teach a language. That is why we have french immersion schools here in Canada. In those schools English is banned except during English classes. So yes, the deaths of children is horrific but we do not know the true facts of what went on at that school in Kamloops nor what is actually in the ground. Until they excavate the site (if they ever do) we will not know and it is irresponsible for people to be repeating information that is not factual. Good perspectives to balance the story. Of course I know little of the facts here other than what I saw in a couple articles. As always, the media is intent on a story that makes money with lots of interest, and outrage is one was to do this. Certainly what they've found here leads one to believe that something very bad has gone on for a very long time, but proper investigation is required.
|
|
|
Post by johnreardon on Jun 3, 2021 11:26:03 GMT
Speaking as a Canadian, and a historian, there are some issues here. They have not excavated the site so they have no idea A) how many bodies are actually there; 2) whether they are children; and 3) what era they come from. All the land in that area used to be native land so this could be a grave from a previous era. I am not saying it is, just that the possibility exists. Since they have not excavated the site and have no idea how many bodies are actually there, it is highly irresponsible for the media, and anyone else for that matter, to be claiming that there are 215. We do not know that. In fact, we have no idea how many there are. But it fits a narrative so the media, and others, jumped on the story immediately and took the 215 figure as gospel despite there being no evidence pointing to that number. As for residential schools, they are a complicated issue. Some were horrific places, run by self-righteous church members who were little more than tyrants (or worse). But there are also natives who attended and who say they had good experiences. As for the language issue (not letting them speak their own languages), to this day full immersion in considered the best way to teach a language. That is why we have french immersion schools here in Canada. In those schools English is banned except during English classes. So yes, the deaths of children is horrific but we do not know the true facts of what went on at that school in Kamloops nor what is actually in the ground. Until they excavate the site (if they ever do) we will not know and it is irresponsible for people to be repeating information that is not factual. Good perspectives to balance the story. Of course I know little of the facts here other than what I saw in a couple articles. As always, the media is intent on a story that makes money with lots of interest, and outrage is one was to do this. Certainly what they've found here leads one to believe that something very bad has gone on for a very long time, but proper investigation is required. They supposedly used ground penetrating radar to ‘discover’ the remains. That’s usually extremely accurate and used by archaeologists & police. Still it would have been better to not treat the story as factual until proven
|
|
|
Post by Colchar on Jun 3, 2021 14:30:14 GMT
They supposedly used ground penetrating radar to ‘discover’ the remains. That’s usually extremely accurate and used by archaeologists & police. It isn't anywhere near accurate. All it can tell you is that something is down there, that's all. It cannot tell you anything more than that. I know about it from speaking to some archeologists and conflict archeologists at the university where I am doing my PhD. They use it all the time. And news stories up here (both print and broadcast) have featured someone from a ground penetrating radar company out west who has worked with natives at old burial grounds. He says it isn't accurate beyond telling you something is there, and that the only way to know is to excavate. He calls it 'daylighting'. But despite that, those same news stories repeat the 215 figure. The fact is that we simply don't know, and it is grossly irresponsible to put a number on this until we have facts. But now that it is out there, that number will never go away and anyone who contradicts it will be shouted down, even if they have facts to back themselves up. Here are his comments: GeoScan, a B.C. company that specializes in using ground-penetrating radar, was not part of the project in Kamloops but the company has helped with many archaeological investigations with Indigenous groups in the past.
“It’s important for us to be a part of that process and lend our expertise and make sure that a full, comprehensive survey is performed,” GeoScan operations director Joseph Salazar said.
As useful as this technology might be, GeoScan says it’s important to understand its limitations. Ground-penetrating radar, magnetometry and even electromagnetic conductivity don’t work like an X-ray.
While they can determine depth, shape and size, there is still much that remains secret beneath the soil.
“It’s not going to give you a black-and-white answer, but it’s going to pinpoint to the right direction most of the time. It’s not an exact survey,” GeoScan lead technician Peter Takacs said.
While some conclusions can be drawn from the data, experts in the field say there’s only one way to get 100 per cent certainty.
“You would have to dig,” Takacs said. “You would have to do a proper investigation. Nothing will essentially give you better results than daylighting.” globalnews.ca/news/7909761/ground-penetrating-radar-kamloops-residential-school/
|
|
|
Post by johnreardon on Jun 3, 2021 14:50:34 GMT
They supposedly used ground penetrating radar to ‘discover’ the remains. That’s usually extremely accurate and used by archaeologists & police. It isn't anywhere near accurate. All it can tell you is that something is down there, that's all. It cannot tell you anything more than that. I know about it from speaking to some archeologists and conflict archeologists at the university where I am doing my PhD. They use it all the time. And news stories up here (both print and broadcast) have featured someone from a ground penetrating radar company out west who has worked with natives at old burial grounds. He says it isn't accurate beyond telling you something is there, and that the only way to know is to excavate. He calls it 'daylighting'. But despite that, those same news stories repeat the 215 figure. The fact is that we simply don't know, and it is grossly irresponsible to put a number on this until we have facts. But now that it is out there, that number will never go away and anyone who contradicts it will be shouted down, even if they have facts to back themselves up. Here are his comments: GeoScan, a B.C. company that specializes in using ground-penetrating radar, was not part of the project in Kamloops but the company has helped with many archaeological investigations with Indigenous groups in the past.
“It’s important for us to be a part of that process and lend our expertise and make sure that a full, comprehensive survey is performed,” GeoScan operations director Joseph Salazar said.
As useful as this technology might be, GeoScan says it’s important to understand its limitations. Ground-penetrating radar, magnetometry and even electromagnetic conductivity don’t work like an X-ray.
While they can determine depth, shape and size, there is still much that remains secret beneath the soil.
“It’s not going to give you a black-and-white answer, but it’s going to pinpoint to the right direction most of the time. It’s not an exact survey,” GeoScan lead technician Peter Takacs said.
While some conclusions can be drawn from the data, experts in the field say there’s only one way to get 100 per cent certainty.
“You would have to dig,” Takacs said. “You would have to do a proper investigation. Nothing will essentially give you better results than daylighting.” globalnews.ca/news/7909761/ground-penetrating-radar-kamloops-residential-school/Yes, only way to 100% confirm it is dig, but the equipment our police & archaeologists use is a very good indication that something is there. Estimating 215 bodies is more than a bit far fetched though. I hope they’re wrong, however, it’s not the number. One body would be one body too many
|
|
|
Post by Die Bullen on Jun 3, 2021 15:52:33 GMT
They supposedly used ground penetrating radar to ‘discover’ the remains. That’s usually extremely accurate and used by archaeologists & police. It isn't anywhere near accurate. All it can tell you is that something is down there, that's all. It cannot tell you anything more than that. I know about it from speaking to some archeologists and conflict archeologists at the university where I am doing my PhD. They use it all the time. And news stories up here (both print and broadcast) have featured someone from a ground penetrating radar company out west who has worked with natives at old burial grounds. He says it isn't accurate beyond telling you something is there, and that the only way to know is to excavate. He calls it 'daylighting'. But despite that, those same news stories repeat the 215 figure. The fact is that we simply don't know, and it is grossly irresponsible to put a number on this until we have facts. But now that it is out there, that number will never go away and anyone who contradicts it will be shouted down, even if they have facts to back themselves up. Here are his comments: GeoScan, a B.C. company that specializes in using ground-penetrating radar, was not part of the project in Kamloops but the company has helped with many archaeological investigations with Indigenous groups in the past.
“It’s important for us to be a part of that process and lend our expertise and make sure that a full, comprehensive survey is performed,” GeoScan operations director Joseph Salazar said.
As useful as this technology might be, GeoScan says it’s important to understand its limitations. Ground-penetrating radar, magnetometry and even electromagnetic conductivity don’t work like an X-ray.
While they can determine depth, shape and size, there is still much that remains secret beneath the soil.
“It’s not going to give you a black-and-white answer, but it’s going to pinpoint to the right direction most of the time. It’s not an exact survey,” GeoScan lead technician Peter Takacs said.
While some conclusions can be drawn from the data, experts in the field say there’s only one way to get 100 per cent certainty.
“You would have to dig,” Takacs said. “You would have to do a proper investigation. Nothing will essentially give you better results than daylighting.” globalnews.ca/news/7909761/ground-penetrating-radar-kamloops-residential-school/Great additional info. As you point out "the damage is done" as far as PR is done- works a whole lot like politics, doesn't it?
|
|
|
Post by zontar on Jun 6, 2021 6:56:39 GMT
In general there were many good intentions not he part of many with the residential schools--btu that went off the rails--somewhat early--especially as some did not have good intentions, and I don't know how carefully things were thought out. So while good may have come from them in some cases--in many they went off track quickly
I was once part of a group of mostly white men who took some time to listen to many from a reserve about their experiences & what we could do about it--even though we were not involved, and had no power to do anything for the time frame we were around
One of the things those who were part of the schools appreciated was that we were listening & asking what can be done, as opposed to just being people who would just think of something to do & do it.
Any actions taken from this need to include & take seriously the local band, and other indigenous people
|
|
|
Post by infant on Jun 6, 2021 13:42:17 GMT
To me, the sound of crickets coming from the Catholic Church is deafening. I am a Catholic and I am disgusted by this just as much as I have been disgusted by the sex scandals that have rocked the church. The Canadian government also has a role in this and needs to make some changes.
A few years ago, I was playing in a band for a few months and the drummer was indigenous. He flew a Mohawk flag in front of his house and one day, during a break, we all got to talking about our childhoods and where we went to school. He apparently spent a few of his early childhood years in residential schools and spoke about beatings that he had seen and been a part of. Then, he was apparently sent to a Catholic school in Hamilton as his residential school had shut down. As we were speaking, he mentioned the principals name who gave him and a few other indigenous children the strap many times and my ears perked up….he went to the same elementary school as me. The strap rarely came out at that school and I only recall one kid in my class ever receiving it. But Rod said that he and the others seemed to get it quite often, which he later figured out was just a continuation of the residential school methods of training. Once he got out of elementary school, he was allowed to go to whatever high school he wanted to and the physical torment ended but the mental torment continues to this day.
|
|
|
Post by johnreardon on Jun 6, 2021 14:56:23 GMT
To me, the sound of crickets coming from the Catholic Church is deafening. I am a Catholic and I am disgusted by this just as much as I have been disgusted by the sex scandals that have rocked the church. The Canadian government also has a role in this and needs to make some changes. A few years ago, I was playing in a band for a few months and the drummer was indigenous. He flew a Mohawk flag in front of his house and one day, during a break, we all got to talking about our childhoods and where we went to school. He apparently spent a few of his early childhood years in residential schools and spoke about beatings that he had seen and been a part of. Then, he was apparently sent to a Catholic school in Hamilton as his residential school had shut down. As we were speaking, he mentioned the principals name who gave him and a few other indigenous children the strap many times and my ears perked up….he went to the same elementary school as me. The strap rarely came out at that school and I only recall one kid in my class ever receiving it. But Rod said that he and the others seemed to get it quite often, which he later figured out was just a continuation of the residential school methods of training. Once he got out of elementary school, he was allowed to go to whatever high school he wanted to and the physical torment ended but the mental torment continues to this day. Without getting into religion, I spent two long periods of my childhood in hospitals suffering from TB. First was six months followed months later by a second stint of eighteen months in a different hospital. Despite being put in a strait jacket for part of a day in the second hospital, the first hospital was more brutal and traumatic for me. The second hospital was run by our fledgling NHS. The first was run by Nuns. They were utterly sadistic to all of us children under their care. Along with the caning almost every day, they used to use a rigid bristle brush to scrub our genitals when they bathed us. We were all aged 7-8 and most of us were from Counties many miles away from near London, where the hospital was. I saw my parents once in that 6 months as they didn’t have a car and Wales was approx 150 miles away. We had no one to complain to and were told to tell any visitors we were treated well. The only respite I had for a while, was around 6 weeks when I had my arm in plaster after falling off a climbing frame. Still I’m still alive
|
|
|
Post by Die Bullen on Jun 6, 2021 15:25:43 GMT
Awful stories guys. I consider myself very lucky that the days of corporal punishment were gone in the schools I attended while growing up in the 70's. It is terrible for people to take their personal frustrations out on little kids. So senseless
|
|
|
Post by zontar on Jun 7, 2021 0:14:12 GMT
I don't know that I've ever been that close to nuns. I'm sure I've seen some in person, but not close up. Although we did have a teacher in high school, that was a former nun.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2021 0:26:15 GMT
Not to seem disrespectful, but I've always loved the Blues Brother's references to "The Penguin".
|
|
|
Post by infant on Jun 7, 2021 2:36:10 GMT
I went to Catholic elementary and high schools. We had nuns at both and I even had a couple as teachers in grades 7 and 8. When I got to high school, the nuns started shedding the “habit” (penguin suit) and started wearing regular street clothes although some still wore the headpiece.
|
|
|
Post by Die Bullen on Jun 7, 2021 3:29:58 GMT
The only experience I ever had with nuns was playing concerts for a nuns retirement home. They were always super nice to us, but I wasn't attending school there
|
|
|
Post by Colchar on Jun 8, 2021 13:14:55 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Colchar on Jul 12, 2021 13:34:38 GMT
|
|
|
Post by allthumbs56 on Jul 12, 2021 20:01:46 GMT
Nowhere near as sensational, nor does it fit the desired narrative. Please refrain from trying to speak the wrong truth.
|
|
|
Post by zontar on Jul 13, 2021 2:49:55 GMT
Nowhere near as sensational, nor does it fit the desired narrative. Please refrain from trying to speak the wrong truth. And yet it doesn't deny the issues and all that for the residential schools. But people like optics--and don't confuse them... Still work to be done on several fronts.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2021 13:32:22 GMT
There does not seem to be much consideration in the press anymore regarding the fires of social division they help to create.
It would be nice to see media temper their presentations toward a more accurate representation of factual evidence instead of repeatedly feeding on the malcontent reactionary segment of the population. Unmarked graves are the point of exploitation in this...the rest of the details will be overshadowed by the outrage for sometime, until media revenues indicate that the mob is losing interest. Yes...I am a media cynic.
|
|
|
Post by Die Bullen on Jul 13, 2021 14:04:22 GMT
Yes...I am a media cynic. At this point, how can one NOT be a media cynic. The truth is whatever you want it to be.
|
|
|
Post by Colchar on Jul 13, 2021 17:15:32 GMT
There does not seem to be much consideration in the press anymore regarding the fires of social division they help to create. It would be nice to see media temper their presentations toward a more accurate representation of factual evidence instead of repeatedly feeding on the malcontent reactionary segment of the population. Unmarked graves are the point of exploitation in this...the rest of the details will be overshadowed by the outrage for sometime, until media revenues indicate that the mob is losing interest. Yes...I am a media cynic. I used to watch CTV National News and their Toronto news at 11:00 and 11:30 respectively every night, but I just cannot do it any more because of the sensationalist spin they put on things. I started watching Global, but they do their national news in the evening and not again at night which is a bit useless if anything has happened since their evening broadcast.
|
|
|
Post by Die Bullen on Jul 13, 2021 18:14:15 GMT
There does not seem to be much consideration in the press anymore regarding the fires of social division they help to create. It would be nice to see media temper their presentations toward a more accurate representation of factual evidence instead of repeatedly feeding on the malcontent reactionary segment of the population. Unmarked graves are the point of exploitation in this...the rest of the details will be overshadowed by the outrage for sometime, until media revenues indicate that the mob is losing interest. Yes...I am a media cynic. I used to watch CTV National News and their Toronto news at 11:00 and 11:30 respectively every night, but I just cannot do it any more because of the sensationalist spin they put on things. I started watching Global, but they do their national news in the evening and not again at night which is a bit useless if anything has happened since their evening broadcast. I used to watch BBC news until the mid-1990's. I stopped because I just couldn't stand the editorializing telling me how I need to feel and the "human interest" stories. At the risk of sounding callous, superintendents in Queens NY who neglect their tenements simply have nothing to do with me. Ever since then I read all my news and my favorite source is the Wall Street Journal. And at that, I really only read the financial news.
|
|
|
Post by keto on Jul 13, 2021 19:01:48 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2021 19:51:21 GMT
The story of the unmarked graves of children at residential schools is hitting a little loser to home today. On the noon news, there's word that 160 unmarked graves have been found at a former residential school location on Kuper Island. Kuper Island is one of the smaller Gulf Islands off the east coast of Vancouver Island and is part of the Penelekut native band reserve, and is about 15 miles from where I live. It underscores the fact that the discovery of 215 graves at the location of the Kamloops residential school, followed by a larger discovery at a location in Saskatchewan, isn't an isolated case, but merely the tip of the iceberg in this chilling story.
I could buy into the story being related on Facebook that in one instance, graves were having markers replaced, and the process was interrupted and never completed, and that the local native band was aware of the grave-sites....But, the repeated discoveries of more bodies being found seems to confirm that there's something horrible that's taken place and it's just now coming to light. As Canadians, we need to make sure this tragedy is fully investigated and not swept under the rug by either the Canadian government or the religious organizations that are culpable in what's happened.
|
|
|
Post by allthumbs56 on Jul 13, 2021 20:15:15 GMT
The story of the unmarked graves of children at residential schools is hitting a little loser to home today. On the noon news, there's word that 160 unmarked graves have been found at a former residential school location on Kuper Island. Kuper Island is one of the smaller Gulf Islands off the east coast of Vancouver Island and is part of the Penelekut native band reserve, and is about 15 miles from where I live. It underscores the fact that the discovery of 215 graves at the location of the Kamloops residential school, followed by a larger discovery at a location in Saskatchewan, isn't an isolated case, but merely the tip of the iceberg in this chilling story. I could buy into the story being related on Facebook that in one instance, graves were having markers replaced, and the process was interrupted and never completed, and that the local native band was aware of the grave-sites....But, the repeated discoveries of more bodies being found seems to confirm that there's something horrible that's taken place and it's just now coming to light. As Canadians, we need to make sure this tragedy is fully investigated and not swept under the rug by either the Canadian government or the religious organizations that are culpable in what's happened. I think the article posted above by Keto reminds us to be level-headed about this. These are unmarked graves - graves for which the wooden crosses originally placed have gone rotten or otherwise disappeared over the past 150 years. I'm not defending residential schools but let's not forget that 40 or more federal governments allowed them to operate from the 1800's right up to 1996 - the bulk of which were formed by our "Natural Ruling Party". I'd be happy to continue this discussion - over in the new Political Section. It's not really fair to have it here.
|
|