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Post by infant on Nov 11, 2020 20:33:00 GMT
We tend to play small bars and therefore, we don’t use a sound man. I have a powered mixer that I keep on stage behind me and we only put the vocals and sax player through it. Everyone else uses amps on stage. Usually we do a sound check once we are set up and things are fine. Lately, our keyboard player has been wanting to leave his keyboard amp at home and plug directly into the PA. Since we don’t have a sound man, I am totally opposed to this as a) no one has control of his volume out in the crowd, and b) his keyboards would overwhelm the stage monitors and make it difficult to hear the vocals. I would prefer that he tilts his amp back so that the sound gets up and over us and we keep the setup as is.
How many of you have the same setup as us (no sound man) and how do you handle keyboards?
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Post by Sgt Rock on Nov 11, 2020 21:08:22 GMT
I'm no sound guy, but if plugging his keyboards into the system is going to overwhelm what you have, just tell him it won't work.
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Post by Bill h on Nov 11, 2020 23:25:38 GMT
We tend to play small bars and therefore, we don’t use a sound man. I have a powered mixer that I keep on stage behind me and we only put the vocals and sax player through it. Everyone else uses amps on stage. Usually we do a sound check once we are set up and things are fine. Lately, our keyboard player has been wanting to leave his keyboard amp at home and plug directly into the PA. Since we don’t have a sound man, I am totally opposed to this as a) no one has control of his volume out in the crowd, and b) his keyboards would overwhelm the stage monitors and make it difficult to hear the vocals. I would prefer that he tilts his amp back so that the sound gets up and over us and we keep the setup as is. How many of you have the same setup as us (no sound man) and how do you handle keyboards? Well, I’ve been on both sides of the sound guy thing. In my first cover band we had a sound guy which meant we had to put the board where he could work it. Just an extra pain in the ass when setting up. We miked everything so it was nice to have someone out there working the board. As time went on we realized we didn’t need to mike everything half the time because we had amps that could get the job done in most situations. By this time we had learned enough about a sound board to run it ourselves and wound up like you guys. There were very few gigs where we would mike everybody but it was different every time. Sometimes we would line in the bass and mike the drums only, sometimes no instrument mikes sometimes everybody. Never had a keyboard in a band so I can’t offer much there but an opinion. For me it would always depend on the venue. I got away without having to mike my guitar at times because of the rig that I used. The keyboards would be the same to me, I think , more often then not you would be running that thru the pa. Might be some more sound geeks here that can offer some good advice.
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Post by johnreardon on Nov 12, 2020 10:02:14 GMT
I have a large 12 channel powered mixer that I normally use with just two 15" cabs, though sometimes link up two powered 12" cabs as well giving 2Kw.These days, I only have mics and sax going through it. When we had keys, he used to use his own amp stuck behind him, but I always complained that he wasn't loud enough so occasionally I put him through the PA. Only time we have mic'ed up the instruments and drums is when we played festivals or for TV programmes. Don't want to annoy soundmen, but they never seem to get it right
We did have a soundman that came along, but I preferred to control the PA myself
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Post by infant on Nov 12, 2020 11:49:52 GMT
John, in my case, I am right next to the keyboard player and I find him loud but at the other side of the stage, they can't hear him. The problem is that he's got the amp right behind him aimed straight at his back so he's absorbing much of the sound. I've tried to tell him that he needs to tilt the amp back to get the sound to project over him but he won't listen. His amp is 300 watts and I'm playing thru a 22 watt Deluxe Reverb with tilt back legs yet everyone can hear me! So the last few gigs, I've folded him ever so slightly through the mains and monitors but I just wish he would listen to me.
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Post by johnreardon on Nov 12, 2020 12:39:31 GMT
John, in my case, I am right next to the keyboard player and I find him loud but at the other side of the stage, they can't hear him. The problem is that he's got the amp right behind him aimed straight at his back so he's absorbing much of the sound. I've tried to tell him that he needs to tilt the amp back to get the sound to project over him but he won't listen. His amp is 300 watts and I'm playing thru a 22 watt Deluxe Reverb with tilt back legs yet everyone can hear me! So the last few gigs, I've folded him ever so slightly through the mains and monitors but I just wish he would listen to me. I used to be the same. He was always just behind me, but while it seemed loud at times to me, he didn't punch out. You can see in this video he starts a solo around the 1:58 mark and I turn round to try and get him to turn up. In the end, I take over the solo. The video was taken from my right. Our chap was next to the toilet and slightly behind the PA. The pub was smallish, but always packed when we were there
He's over on the right in this video and his amp is miced up, so it's a bit better but still not enough
This was taken at a festival and all of us were miced up and his sound was just about right, although they messed up my volume, so my sound is mainly coming from my 36w amp. Same song starts about 12:00
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Post by infant on Nov 12, 2020 15:10:19 GMT
Those all sound quite good. I can hear the keys in all of them but yes, he could have been a bit louder in the first clip. I believe that a lot of the sound problems can be eliminated by using an amp stand and tilting the amp back. A couple of years ago I picked up a Boss Katana amp and the first gig I played with it, I had it sitting about a foot off the floor on a milk crate and I could hear it fine At the end of the night, the bass player said he could hardly hear me. The following week, same amp, same settings and venue but I tilted the amp back. At the end of the night he said he could hear me clearly and the amp had lots of punch. When he asked what I did differently, I told him that I just tilted it back to get the sound up to our ears and over our heads.
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Post by Sgt Rock on Nov 12, 2020 18:33:45 GMT
maybe y'all could all "chip" in and buy him an amp stand that tilts back ? just a thought.
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Post by infant on Nov 13, 2020 2:50:22 GMT
Brent, do you think we are made of money??? 😂🤣😂🤣😂 Seriously my band mates are cheap bastards! I wanted to buy some used stage lights a few years ago. I asked them to pitch in $20 each....I got nothing but questions like “do we need them”? I bought them myself and now they love them and miss them if I don’t bring them. Same goes for a Yamaha powered mixer I found for $50. I thought it would be good to have as a backup at gigs. Nope! So I bought it myself and we use it at rehearsals...works perfectly. I’ve run into this with other items I’ve suggested buying. Now when they complain, I let it go. I’ve spent enough of my cash on them.
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Post by johnreardon on Nov 13, 2020 9:21:04 GMT
Those all sound quite good. I can hear the keys in all of them but yes, he could have been a bit louder in the first clip. I believe that a lot of the sound problems can be eliminated by using an amp stand and tilting the amp back. A couple of years ago I picked up a Boss Katana amp and the first gig I played with it, I had it sitting about a foot off the floor on a milk crate and I could hear it fine At the end of the night, the bass player said he could hardly hear me. The following week, same amp, same settings and venue but I tilted the amp back. At the end of the night he said he could hear me clearly and the amp had lots of punch. When he asked what I did differently, I told him that I just tilted it back to get the sound up to our ears and over our heads. There must be something about Keyboard players, they all seem to stick their amps behind them. I know us guitarists do the same, but we haven't got often a large person sat on a stool in front of a large keyboard setup, blocking the sound. Our sax player has his own monitor, that he plugs his sax bug into, which then feeds into my PA. Perhaps the keys player could stick his amp in front of him and have a small monitor by his side.
I am not a fan of amp stands. I know back in the 60s, I often placed my amp on chairs, but these days I prefer cabs sitting on the floor. I seem to get a better bass, anyway I usually play with 2 1x12 cabs with a head on top, so it would wobble on an amp stand
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Post by infant on Nov 13, 2020 15:29:51 GMT
I understand what you are saying John but I don’t see how having his amp sitting in front helps as he still can’t hear how loud he is playing out to the audience, which is usually why one would use a sound man and put him through the PA. Besides, as I said to Brent, my band mates are pretty tight with their money....he won’t go and buy a small monitor and when he already has a perfectly good amp. However, don't get me wrong, our Monitors don’t turn to mud when the keys go through them but rather I find that it’s hard to hear the vocals clearly when the keys are added to the mix. I don’t mind the sax coming through them as it’s a single note instrument and so it’s like a voice. We have 4 vocalists and use a lot of harmonies. We all like to be able to hear what we are all singing. I’ve installed Fender tilt back legs on my Deluxe Reverb and so the amp sits on the floor. If I use my Boss Katana, I use one of these to tilt it back. I don’t notice any loss of bass and the sound gets out into the crowd. www.amazon.ca/Stage-RS4000-Folding-Guitar-Amplifier/dp/B0075DNS9A
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Post by Sgt Rock on Nov 13, 2020 17:09:24 GMT
Brent, do you think we are made of money??? 😂🤣😂🤣😂 Seriously my band mates are cheap bastards! I wanted to buy some used stage lights a few years ago. I asked them to pitch in $20 each....I got nothing but questions like “do we need them”? I bought them myself and now they love them and miss them if I don’t bring them. Same goes for a Yamaha powered mixer I found for $50. I thought it would be good to have as a backup at gigs. Nope! So I bought it myself and we use it at rehearsals...works perfectly. I’ve run into this with other items I’ve suggested buying. Now when they complain, I let it go. I’ve spent enough of my cash on them. wow ! that is cheap. waiting for someone else to buy things for them. how long have you been with these guys ?
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Post by Sgt Rock on Nov 13, 2020 17:17:19 GMT
I saw those when I bought my amp stand. but I bought my amp stand because I was tired of bending over to see the controls.
that would be perfect for what you need it for, but if they are that cheap, a small 2X4 piece of lumber would cost too much.
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Post by infant on Nov 13, 2020 20:47:44 GMT
Brent, I’ve known the sax player since we were in the first grade and I’ve been in bands with him since the early ‘70s. I’ve been in this band for 15 years. They are great guys, just very tight with their money when it comes to things that they don’t feel are absolutely necessary. (ie: “we have a powered mixer, why do we want another?”). They don’t look at what happens if the mixer breaks down at a gig.
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Post by johnreardon on Nov 14, 2020 10:01:55 GMT
I understand what you are saying John but I don’t see how having his amp sitting in front helps as he still can’t hear how loud he is playing out to the audience, which is usually why one would use a sound man and put him through the PA. Besides, as I said to Brent, my band mates are pretty tight with their money....he won’t go and buy a small monitor and when he already has a perfectly good amp. However, don't get me wrong, our Monitors don’t turn to mud when the keys go through them but rather I find that it’s hard to hear the vocals clearly when the keys are added to the mix. I don’t mind the sax coming through them as it’s a single note instrument and so it’s like a voice. We have 4 vocalists and use a lot of harmonies. We all like to be able to hear what we are all singing. I’ve installed Fender tilt back legs on my Deluxe Reverb and so the amp sits on the floor. If I use my Boss Katana, I use one of these to tilt it back. I don’t notice any loss of bass and the sound gets out into the crowd. www.amazon.ca/Stage-RS4000-Folding-Guitar-Amplifier/dp/B0075DNS9A
I meant put amp in front only if he has a monitor as well. Our old Keys man had an output from his amp that could feed a monitor just for him. I agree with keys coming through monitors though. Definitely messes up the rest.
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Post by Die Bullen on Dec 17, 2020 1:24:17 GMT
I rarely use a sound guy on gigs unless the pay can cover it. I will bring my pa and "set and forget" if I need to but it a lot of extra gear and hassle.
That said, when I am funded for the extra $250-300 it costs me for a sound guy, it does make a huge difference. The really professional sound guys really earn their pay, constantly walking around and trimming levels.
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Post by zontar on Dec 17, 2020 7:45:34 GMT
I used to do sound when I taught for the Festivals--the kids would get a short sound check--and since it wasn't my soundboard I had to learn it quickly--I eventually got decent at it.
I've played ofr others with a sound guy & without.
As dB mentioned--a good sound guy ears their pay.
when I play at church we do have a sound guy--some are better than others--and I have ones I am glad to see when I show up to set up--I know they know their stuff--especially if I'm playing bass.
None are terrible--but some are better than others.
We have had to go without one at times, but someone has to go to the back to turn stuff down when we're not playing. (Well I have a volume pedal for that--so does the keyboard player--but not everybody else does.)
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Post by johnreardon on Dec 17, 2020 9:13:04 GMT
I don't like using unknown sound men at gigs, mainly because they haven't much info about what your band is playing.
Our band used to have 10 on stage, with 3 people who sang main vocals, plus 4 singing backing vocals, so 7 mics in total. There were 4 of us who played solos, 2 guitars, sax, keys & me playing harmonica for a few. So it must be difficult for any sound man to get it right, particularly if their equipment is not really up to the task and they have to lower/raise volumes to avoiding peaking.
I have tried giving them cheat sheets for songs indicating which people are doing the solos, but it never seems to work. They are either not interested or it's too complicated.
It would be a lot different if sound men were playing with you regularly.
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Post by Die Bullen on Dec 17, 2020 13:12:44 GMT
We have a really good sound guy for the really big gigs where we have 8 people in the band but it is rare.
I've seen quite a few larger bands simply collapse under the weight of too much overhead and the ability to get gigs.
In the words of a bandleader I know: "With 20 guys on stage and a sound guy the minimum can even field the band for is $2000-2500 and in reality I should be paying them $5000-6000. Compound that with $20,000- $30,000 in sound gear I invested in that I will never get back. Any 4 or 5 man combo or rock band can undercut us and go out for $400-600 so I just can't win"
Important lesson for me when we were starting out...
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Post by johnreardon on Dec 18, 2020 10:04:09 GMT
We have a really good sound guy for the really big gigs where we have 8 people in the band but it is rare. I've seen quite a few larger bands simply collapse under the weight of too much overhead and the ability to get gigs. In the words of a bandleader I know: "With 20 guys on stage and a sound guy the minimum can even field the band for is $2000-2500 and in reality I should be paying them $5000-6000. Compound that with $20,000- $30,000 in sound gear I invested in that I will never get back. Any 4 or 5 man combo or rock band can undercut us and go out for $400-600 so I just can't win" Important lesson for me when we were starting out... Very true. Since 3 people retire from our band a couple of years ago, I think we have gone back a lot closer to how we sounded back in the 60s. It's a lot clearer with no keys. So we are basically now a guitar band again, with a sax player at some gigs.
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Post by Die Bullen on Dec 18, 2020 13:33:43 GMT
It is a really fine line between full sounds musicians and financial risk. Cost is one of the factors that torpedoed the Big Bands back in the 1950's.
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Post by infant on Dec 18, 2020 19:13:52 GMT
We have a really good sound guy for the really big gigs where we have 8 people in the band but it is rare. I've seen quite a few larger bands simply collapse under the weight of too much overhead and the ability to get gigs. In the words of a bandleader I know: "With 20 guys on stage and a sound guy the minimum can even field the band for is $2000-2500 and in reality I should be paying them $5000-6000. Compound that with $20,000- $30,000 in sound gear I invested in that I will never get back. Any 4 or 5 man combo or rock band can undercut us and go out for $400-600 so I just can't win" Important lesson for me when we were starting out... Very true. Since 3 people retire from our band a couple of years ago, I think we have gone back a lot closer to how we sounded back in the 60s. It's a lot clearer with no keys. So we are basically now a guitar band again, with a sax player at some gigs. Why is it that keys muddy up the mix so much? Some of the patches that our keyboard player uses seem to be dripping in reverb. We’ve asked if he could remove some but he has to go in and recreate them...a bit of a hassle. In the past I’ve filled in with a band that had no keys. BIG difference! I heard everything.
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Post by johnreardon on Dec 18, 2020 19:53:27 GMT
Very true. Since 3 people retire from our band a couple of years ago, I think we have gone back a lot closer to how we sounded back in the 60s. It's a lot clearer with no keys. So we are basically now a guitar band again, with a sax player at some gigs. Why is it that keys muddy up the mix so much? Some of the patches that our keyboard player uses seem to be dripping in reverb. We’ve asked if he could remove some but he has to go in and recreate them...a bit of a hassle. In the past I’ve filled in with a band that had no keys. BIG difference! I heard everything. With our keys, he often didn't seem to find the right sound for what we were playing. I think part of the issue was that he wasn't an original member in the 60s. While most of us knew him, he only joined when we reformed in 2013. He came from a cabaret type band who were good, but way too poppy for us. A few times me and the singer would cringe when he started playing what we would call 'Reginald Dixon' type stuff, Reginald Dixon, was an English theatre organist who was primarily known for his position as organist at the Tower Ballroom, Blackpool, a position he held from March 1930 until March 1970. He made and sold more recordings than any other organist before him, or since. It's the sort of 'Oh I do like to be beside the seaside'. Not really R&B
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2020 19:17:08 GMT
I've never played in a band that used a soundman.To me, it seems pretentious for some bands to use one. The most I ever did was use a wireless and go out to see how we sounded out front.
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Post by Bill h on Dec 21, 2020 19:47:04 GMT
I've never played in a band that used a soundman.To me, it seems pretentious for some bands to use one. The most I ever did was use a wireless and go out to see how we sounded out front. That what we’ve always done. We would just walk out front and then make whatever adjustments that were needed. I’ve played in clubs that had their own PA system and had a sound guy. Only in one band many years ago did we have a sound guy, kept the board out front, having to find a route for the snake was always a pain let alone humping around the extra cabling. These days it’s just easier to keep the board on the stage and do it ourselves.
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Post by Die Bullen on Dec 21, 2020 20:07:54 GMT
I've never played in a band that used a soundman.To me, it seems pretentious for some bands to use one. The most I ever did was use a wireless and go out to see how we sounded out front. For instance when we play summer gigs in a trailer stage you want a sound guy. My PA would not even be sufficient for that kind of layout and I'd gladly pay a guy to bring masses of equipment.
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Post by Bill h on Dec 21, 2020 20:22:30 GMT
In the one band I mentioned above where we actually did have a sound guy we didn’t have a clue what we were doing. It was our first pa and we thought it was just the thing to do. Given the size of the clubs we were playing it would seem pretentious but it was more ignorance then anything. Anyhow, it was live and learn.
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Post by zontar on Dec 22, 2020 7:34:56 GMT
I have known of bands where the sound guy wa s a friend who wanted to hang with the band, but wasn't a musician--or wasn't a very good one.
Sometimes they wind up being pretty good (One in particular) But sometimes it can be a disaster.
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Post by Die Bullen on Dec 22, 2020 14:17:14 GMT
I have known of bands where the sound guy wa s a friend who wanted to hang with the band, but wasn't a musician--or wasn't a very good one. Sometimes they wind up being pretty good (One in particular) But sometimes it can be a disaster. I've had that experience where a friend decided to help out on sound it he had absolutely no idea- that didn't go great
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Post by zontar on Dec 23, 2020 2:30:07 GMT
I have known of bands where the sound guy wa s a friend who wanted to hang with the band, but wasn't a musician--or wasn't a very good one. Sometimes they wind up being pretty good (One in particular) But sometimes it can be a disaster. I've had that experience where a friend decided to help out on sound it he had absolutely no idea- that didn't go great I'm sure it's hit & miss, and probably more likely to be a miss, but when it's a hit--that's cool.
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