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Post by gooner on Jan 15, 2016 10:53:26 GMT
Ok, it seems to me that there are multiple options here and I'm after your advice on these scenarios! Oh shit  I hear you say.  Up until now we have set up in practice how we have set up where there is nothing supplied.... Guitar amps set up as a back line and levelled with the loudest instrument. ( Drums ) then vocals, sax and keys through our PA laid on top. Having played the gig in Folkestone where there was a PA and serious sized mixing desk, it seems that it may be a good idea to mic up the amps and push everything through the PA. So here are my questions. 1. In this scenario what are the advantages of mic'ing the drums?( We don't really need to up the volume and would rather have the drums as the maximum level so would rather not plus we wouldn't be able to set individual levels for the whole kit) 2. Are you reliant on the floor monitors to hear yourself or would you have the amps up loud enough to hear them from behind you and if you have your amps up loud enough to hear above the drums won't this affect the mix? 3. If you use the floor monitors to hear your own guitar, I take it that you can use a much less powerful amp that may produce a slightly better tone? 4. With acoustic guitars, would you put them through the PA or use amps? in our case this is what equipment we use: Drums, (When we can get a drummer) keyboards (direct into PA) 3 Guitar amps, 3 mics for vocals, 1 mic for sax, 6 channel PA, 12 channel mixer, 2 powered monitors and a slave.   We have a spare PA and enough mics. |
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Post by Mindfrigg on Jan 15, 2016 14:22:01 GMT
I have no opinion on this matter. Except the part about lower powered amps/mics being a good thing...and acoustic guitars going through the PA..yes.
Without recording your gigs it's hard to get an idea about what's best. But I'd say micing everything gives you more control over balance of individual elements. If you're just rocking out..then maybe it's a level of detail that's unnecessary. Plus...more things to go wrong.
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Post by Maxwell on Jan 15, 2016 15:33:26 GMT
Putting sound munky hat on for a bit...speaking as such, not as player...  Small room, mic the kick. On the channel strip, take the mid knob FULL CUT. Leave top and bottom FLAT because all the suckage in a kick just got nuked by the FULL CUT on the mid knob set to FULL CUT. What is left is impact at top for definition and punch at bottom with no woowoo crap in between because you killed it with the mid set FULL CUT. It also does not sound like a hunnert pillows are shoved in it. It punches like a mug. Remember small room so have kick just loud enough to fill that bottom end of spectrum with the bass gtr. It will make the band tighter because kick is now distinct and not all jammed in with bass gtr freqs. The problem with gtr amps is the kill zone...oh and deaf ass gtr players. One way to help with the kill zone is a stand. Gets it higher and tilts it so the kill zone is aimed more at ceiling. If you mic in a small room, it don't take much because the gtr gawd will turn up as the night goes on. Just is. A plexiglass/lexan shield solves so many problems if you can get a picker to use one. He can run louder behind that shield and no children or small animals are killed out front... Stick a mic and you're done. My rule of thumb for small rooms is that micing instruments is for clarity and definition, not volume. Kick and sometimes snare depending on player and how hard the stage area walls are. Guitars for definition, keep low. Keys depending on amp as to what degree of Fronts level. Bass, not in small room. B U T bass, being a good percentage omni can bloom on you. Go stand in the back of room to hear how loud bass player actually is. Have him start flat and eq to the room for clarity on his amp. Vocals... If you are in a soft room and the popcorn munchers are real close, put a nice gated reverb on vocal just enough to take the front edge off. Same volume but it doesn't 'sound as loud'... If you have graphics, get the smiley face off and set the damn things back flat! When you set up in a room, get rid of just the bad stuff with the graphic. The rest is gravy....and a damn smiley face ain't gravy.... Start with your channel strips set flat too and leave them there, except kick is MID FULL CUT. Get it happening and then you can decide if a tone knob needs to be tweaked on the channel strip... Usually doesn't... Yeah, I do sound good when I mix. Not tooting my horn, just is. My secret? Simple as hell. I don't NEED or WANT a ton of outboard gear. The sound is all in there along with shit. Kill the shit and LEAVE THE REST ALONE. Miller time! Just some suggestions... |
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Post by gooner on Jan 15, 2016 19:22:10 GMT
Putting sound munky hat on for a bit...speaking as such, not as player... Small room, mic the kick. On the channel strip, take the mid knob FULL CUT. Leave top and bottom FLAT because all the suckage in a kick just got nuked by the FULL CUT on the mid knob set to FULL CUT. What is left is impact at top for definition and punch at bottom with no woowoo crap in between because you killed it with the mid set FULL CUT. It also does not sound like a hunnert pillows are shoved in it. It punches like a mug. Remember small room so have kick just loud enough to fill that bottom end of spectrum with the bass gtr. It will make the band tighter because kick is now distinct and not all jammed in with bass gtr freqs. The problem with gtr amps is the kill zone...oh and deaf ass gtr players. One way to help with the kill zone is a stand. Gets it higher and tilts it so the kill zone is aimed more at ceiling. If you mic in a small room, it don't take much because the gtr gawd will turn up as the night goes on. Just is. A plexiglass/lexan shield solves so many problems if you can get a picker to use one. He can run louder behind that shield and no children or small animals are killed out front... Stick a mic and you're done. My rule of thumb for small rooms is that micing instruments is for clarity and definition, not volume. Kick and sometimes snare depending on player and how hard the stage area walls are. Guitars for definition, keep low. Keys depending on amp as to what degree of Fronts level. Bass, not in small room. B U T bass, being a good percentage omni can bloom on you. Go stand in the back of room to hear how loud bass player actually is. Have him start flat and eq to the room for clarity on his amp. Vocals... If you are in a soft room and the popcorn munchers are real close, put a nice gated reverb on vocal just enough to take the front edge off. Same volume but it doesn't 'sound as loud'... If you have graphics, get the smiley face off and set the damn things back flat! When you set up in a room, get rid of just the bad stuff with the graphic. The rest is gravy....and a damn smiley face ain't gravy.... Start with your channel strips set flat too and leave them there, except kick is MID FULL CUT. Get it happening and then you can decide if a tone knob needs to be tweaked on the channel strip... Usually doesn't... Yeah, I do sound good when I mix. Not tooting my horn, just is. My secret? Simple as hell. I don't NEED or WANT a ton of outboard gear. The sound is all in there along with shit. Kill the shit and LEAVE THE REST ALONE. Miller time! Just some suggestions... So if my American to English translator is correct........ ........... Mic the kick drum and turn the mids down to zero, Lift and angle the guitar cabs upwards, Mic the guitar cabs but the volume comes from the back line not the PA mix ? Put a little reverb on the vocals. Not sure what you mean by graphics, so I suspect that you are talking digital, so don't have anything like that. How did I do? |
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Post by Maxwell on Jan 15, 2016 20:42:48 GMT
Putting sound munky hat on for a bit...speaking as such, not as player... Small room, mic the kick. On the channel strip, take the mid knob FULL CUT. Leave top and bottom FLAT because all the suckage in a kick just got nuked by the FULL CUT on the mid knob set to FULL CUT. What is left is impact at top for definition and punch at bottom with no woowoo crap in between because you killed it with the mid set FULL CUT. It also does not sound like a hunnert pillows are shoved in it. It punches like a mug. Remember small room so have kick just loud enough to fill that bottom end of spectrum with the bass gtr. It will make the band tighter because kick is now distinct and not all jammed in with bass gtr freqs. The problem with gtr amps is the kill zone...oh and deaf ass gtr players. One way to help with the kill zone is a stand. Gets it higher and tilts it so the kill zone is aimed more at ceiling. If you mic in a small room, it don't take much because the gtr gawd will turn up as the night goes on. Just is. A plexiglass/lexan shield solves so many problems if you can get a picker to use one. He can run louder behind that shield and no children or small animals are killed out front... Stick a mic and you're done. My rule of thumb for small rooms is that micing instruments is for clarity and definition, not volume. Kick and sometimes snare depending on player and how hard the stage area walls are. Guitars for definition, keep low. Keys depending on amp as to what degree of Fronts level. Bass, not in small room. B U T bass, being a good percentage omni can bloom on you. Go stand in the back of room to hear how loud bass player actually is. Have him start flat and eq to the room for clarity on his amp. Vocals... If you are in a soft room and the popcorn munchers are real close, put a nice gated reverb on vocal just enough to take the front edge off. Same volume but it doesn't 'sound as loud'... If you have graphics, get the smiley face off and set the damn things back flat! When you set up in a room, get rid of just the bad stuff with the graphic. The rest is gravy....and a damn smiley face ain't gravy.... Start with your channel strips set flat too and leave them there, except kick is MID FULL CUT. Get it happening and then you can decide if a tone knob needs to be tweaked on the channel strip... Usually doesn't... Yeah, I do sound good when I mix. Not tooting my horn, just is. My secret? Simple as hell. I don't NEED or WANT a ton of outboard gear. The sound is all in there along with shit. Kill the shit and LEAVE THE REST ALONE. Miller time! Just some suggestions... So if my American to English translator is correct........ ........... Mic the kick drum and turn the mids down to zero, Lift and angle the guitar cabs upwards, Mic the guitar cabs but the volume comes from the back line not the PA mix ? Put a little reverb on the vocals. Not sure what you mean by graphics, so I suspect that you are talking digital, so don't have anything like that. How did I do? Pretty close  Again, not talking as player but sound munky... and speaking smaller rooms and NOT head banging music.... The guitar amps aimed up gets them aimed at both ceiling and players head (ears) and not in the first tables in the club it'll knock the makeup off the drummers girlfriend and her momma.....and sisters....and aunt....oh she's the girlfriend... ooops...  Ever played with someone playing a Super Rev or Quad Rev with it sitting on the floor about two or three feet behind them? They get it where they can hear it and it is so damn loud out front it's knocked the ashtrays off the bar tables.... Speakers are straight forward, not up at an angle toward head. In a small room, the guitar amps will project out front. You usually can't get a guitarist to turn down low enough to rely totally on Fronts. No big deal. Just have them a bit in the Fronts for definition, not really volume. They WILL turn up, I'd bet on it. If you're relying on Fronts for gtr then when they turn up on stage like THEY WILL, they'll probably set off car alarms in the parking lot before you can get to the board...  Graphic is graphic Equalizer with individual freq cut/boost sliders that folks cannot keep their hands off...Folks just love a smiley face on the front... I kept mine in my Fronts rack behind the clear covers just so nobody (guitarist) would dick with (guitarist) the knobs (guitarist)... |
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Post by Maxwell on Jan 15, 2016 20:55:36 GMT
One activity that will get you kilt quickly by a sound munky... "What's dis knob do?" |
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Post by Grand Toad on Jan 15, 2016 23:59:13 GMT
Be wary of the guitarist that rolls in a 100w stack to play at 100 seat club. That spells trouble. House sound is for the sound munky to handle. Monitors are tricky. To me there is nothing much worse than a band that isn't sound checked, and spends the whole time on stage whining about monitors and stage sound. I preferred having the amps set close together. Setting up to far apart, to me makes the sound sloppy. Now, mind you, I've always played in a two guitar, one bass, one drummer band.
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Post by Grand Toad on Jan 16, 2016 0:02:23 GMT
One activity that will get you kilt quickly by a sound munky... "What's dis knob do?" One thing that will have you with a crease in your forehead is, "can I play play your guitar?" One of my old pal's always responded to that with, "can I screw your wife (or girlfriend)?" |
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Post by Schidney on Jan 16, 2016 0:26:22 GMT
One activity that will get you kilt quickly by a sound munky... "What's dis knob do?" One thing that will have you with a crease in your forehead is, "can I play play your guitar?" One of my old pal's always responded to that with, "can I screw your wife (or girlfriend)?" I'm guessin, the answer was no then? That's no spelt "Fuck Off"  |
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Post by Catfish on Jan 17, 2016 16:53:35 GMT
One activity that will get you kilt quickly by a sound munky... "What's dis knob do?" One thing that will have you with a crease in your forehead is, "can I play play your guitar?" One of my old pal's always responded to that with, "can I screw your wife (or girlfriend)?" It appears we have mutual friends, Toad, that was my exact response for many years. Lulz. |
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Post by Catfish on Jan 17, 2016 17:02:45 GMT
So here are my questions. 1. In this scenario what are the advantages of mic'ing the drums?( We don't really need to up the volume and would rather have the drums as the maximum level so would rather not plus we wouldn't be able to set individual levels for the whole kit) 2. Are you reliant on the floor monitors to hear yourself or would you have the amps up loud enough to hear them from behind you and if you have your amps up loud enough to hear above the drums won't this affect the mix? 3. If you use the floor monitors to hear your own guitar, I take it that you can use a much less powerful amp that may produce a slightly better tone? 4. With acoustic guitars, would you put them through the PA or use amps? in our case this is what equipment we use: Drums, (When we can ge a drummer) keyboards (direct into PA) 3 Guitar amps, 3 mics for vocals, 1 mic for sax, 6 channel PA, 12 channel mixer, 2 powered monitors and a slave. I think Edro pretty much covered it. 1: The advantage of micing the drums is clarity at the back of the room. The kick is first priority. Usually, that's enough for a small or mid-sized hall. An A/B or X/Y stereo pair above the mantle toms to capture handwork is the next level. After that, you're really micing the kit... 2. I put my amp on the backline as close as possible to the drummer's throne, so that HE can hear it. The soundman usually adds a mic for the main mix, and I sometimes, but not always, ask for a bit of guitar in my monitor. 3. My main stage amp is borderline; loud enough to match most drummers, but not so loud that it doesn't mic well. Most of the signal in my monitor is vocals. When I use a smaller amp, such as my Mouse, I get more guitar in the monitor to compensate for lack of stage volume. 4. I would actually use an amp for acoustic now, having tried it out a few times due to necessity. If going direct to a PA, I always use a transformer inline. |
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Post by gooner on Jan 17, 2016 22:35:31 GMT
Thanks guys, appreciate it |
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Post by Bill h on Jan 18, 2016 2:11:22 GMT
Thanks guys, appreciate it Size and acoustics of the room made that decision for me. It was rare we were in a space so large we had to mic everything. Usually it was the bass lined in to the pa, guitar miced and the kick on the drum, and maybe the highhat as well. Super small rooms we did not mic the guitar. Less then that if we could get away with it. We had a pa big enough to handle any decent size room but trial and error taught us to mic only when the situation demands it. We did use monitors alot and for me anyway i just needed to hear the singer so we always argued over monitor mix. |
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I hear you say. 
Again, not talking as player but sound munky... and speaking smaller rooms and NOT head banging music....
