roberteaux
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Post by roberteaux on Dec 12, 2015 11:08:59 GMT
You know, I lost my instructor about a year ago, mainly because I found that the guy was playing all kinds of dirty games, and even managed to implicate me in an affair I had nothing to do with. Most recently, he appears to have ripped off about 3 grand collected at a gig for charity. The cops investigated, and ain't nobody got nothin' when it comes to what really happened. But some of his subsequent behavior tends to strongly suggest that he's the dude who did the stealin'. It's a long story I won't go into here, but the bottom line is that I'm not the only person who is highly suspicious of him, and when you add that to the other underhanded crap that I know for sure he pulled, and now you've got a guy I don't want to be around. I hated it that all that happened, because the dude is a very good player and he was an excellent instructor. I owe him an awful lot, but damn man... I got a few standards, believe it or not.
So now I just avoid dealing with the guy at all. He ain't ever gonna be my instructor again, either. If I don't trust a guy, I won't even let him in my house. It's as simple as that.
Which means that I'm not mainly self-driven, and learning a lot from video instruction, mainly youtube stuff, though I've bought the occasional instructional DVD and still have things like simulacrum programs to work with. I've taught myself all kinds of stuff like that, and am generally still happy with my progress. I do thank my instructor in spirit, because he was as concerned with teaching me to teach myself as he was just spoon feeding me with stuff.
And now the beef:
I've noticed that a lot of guys who are teaching things that are played mainly in a finger picked fashion have a tendency to reference entire chords at various points within various compositions in cases where actually all that is being played is two notes, pinched. Weirdly, I've noticed that some of these players will also form the entire chord shape while performing said pinch, even though it serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever to do so.
Now to be fair, I have always played things the way the video taught me to play them... at least, at first. One thing I did find was that if one decided to strum through the chords instead of arpeggiating them, the the chord that was mentioned and shown in the sequence is definitely the one to use-- while strumming. But if you're not strumming, why bother with the full chord formation, if all you're really going to do is pinch with no further arpeggiation of the chord at hand?
There have been other times, when I found the instructor showing to use one iteration of a chord that is more difficult to form than yet another iteration of the same chord. For instance, I'm playing something right now that calls for a Bm7 chord, and the way the guy showed to play it was with the root note (fret 7 string 6), followed by a barre across strings 2, 3, and 4... which is a little messier than just the usual barre with the f# note in the Bm7 chord being played on string 5, fret 9...
The kicker is that the f# note isn't played at all, no matter how the chord is formed... but the next chord is Am7, and in this one the e-note in the mix is played... string 5, fret 7...
So what I'm saying is: why mess with two different shapes when it would be so much easier to just slide the minor seventh barre shape down two frets? It's so much easier...
I understand that a lot of this stuff I'm grumping about is no big deal, really... but I shoot for surety most of the time, and I have a tendency to pick my chord iterations first by tone-- like, I'll use a cowboy chord if possible if I need a really strong, clear tone... or I'll slide into a barre chord when I'm looking for a different voicing that's more mellow... or whatever. It's the kind of crap that goes any which way with me.
I'm wondering if sometimes this isn't a matter of different styles of playing or something. And I honestly don't understand why somebody would complicate things by talking about entire chords when it would be so much easier for the player to just do the pinch if there's no strumming to be done.
Weird. Different strokes, I guess. But I'm still puzzled by so many teachers who want to talk about entire chords in their presentation, when all that will be used is a pinch on two strings, and sometimes even just a single note.
--Rob
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Post by Bill h on Dec 13, 2015 1:12:14 GMT
In the end, it doesn't matter wether you only play 1 note or 2 notes of a chord. What's most comfortable to you is always the best way. Sure, there is a right or preferred way and wrong way but in the end it's just a starting point. I've seen some really good guitar players do some weird stuff with chords simply because it was more comfortable for them. For me, if grabbing a whole chord for only 2 notes is easier so be it. Most of the 2 note bends I do are just parts of other chords. Which ever way makes you.play better is the way to go.
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Post by Mindfrigg on Dec 13, 2015 1:59:42 GMT
I think it's easier in most cases to finger the entire chord as far as memory and reflexes. Also, the same note fretted on a different string sounds slightly different so that could be a part of it. Also efficacy in travel from one to the next relative to it's position within a song. I personally use fragmented barre chords a lot especially in my own compositions. I have at least one that uses nothing but, mainly to teach my son how to use them and how versatile and fundamental they are.
That's all I got, if It even makes sense and I understood your question correctly Rob. My knowledge of theory at this point is mainly intuitive as I threw most of that out with the bathwater years ago.
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roberteaux
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Post by roberteaux on Dec 13, 2015 18:44:26 GMT
Thanks, fellas! I got a big flash of light off what each of you said... I think now that it's a combination of the muscle memory thing... like, easier just to drop into this or that chord even if you're just gonna pinch two notes of it. I think that's pretty big, right there-- it explains so much! The other thing was that I got to thinking of what I said earlier: where if you actually were to strum the chords that these guys are naming, you'd end up with a strummed version of the song that would be correct, and would sound right. Here's a thing I finally worked out last night: I'm doing this song by Simon and Garfunkel, "Bridge Over Troubled Water"... and in the intro, the guy (Justin Guitar, a really cool teacher if ever there was one) tells me to play a D6, and to then transition to a Dm9(no 3rd). All this stuff is happening on the 5th fret, all barre chords. So anyway, being really, really lazy, I found that if I just played a Dmaj7, it would be easier because I didn't have to shift so many fingers to get to that next chord and instead could just lift one finger off the b-string and bang, I'm home! BUT! If I were to strum that song, and started it with that Dmaj7 instead of the D6, we'd end up with a version of the song that wouldn't sound quite right... the chord that belongs there if you were to just strum and not arpeggiate, would definitely be a D6. I tried it with a Dmaj7 and it's... WRONG! And so even though it offends my dedication to laziness, I'm playing it the way the guy taught it. It's much easier to form that Dmaj7 and get to Dmaj9 like that... and since you're just pinching a couple of notes and not playing the whole chord, you can get away with it... But it is still wrong because it's like I said, if strummed, you'd need that D6, not a Dmaj7... So, I sighed and decided that I'd just do things the right way instead of the easy way. If I ever chose to strum that one, and started with Dmaj7 out of habit, we'd have ourselves a little bit of a botch on our hands. And we can't have that! Last but not least: because of what you guys said, I realized that the big problem here is that I play a lot of songs that call for a major 7th barre chords... but only a couple of songs that call for a barre 6th... and so it only seems "easier" to me because I'm good with major 7ths, but so far only seem to play sixths as partials, since that's how they were played in this or that song. It's that muscle memory thing! I think you nailed it! So thanks again. This is one less bee in my bonnet... ROFL --Rob  |
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Post by Bill h on Dec 13, 2015 19:05:42 GMT
I never looked at guitar in terms of right and wrong. Only what sounds good and what sounds bad, that's it.
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Post by Mindfrigg on Dec 14, 2015 1:04:24 GMT
Electric guitar is still a relatively new animal. So there's room for innovation which was the whole impetus in the first place. Lots of divergent styles too. Many created by individuals that had a very personal approach to the guitar.
The kind of staid ossified worship of tradition and technique found in classical schools is objectionable to me.
I think it's one of the reasons I find the hype of late '50s 'bursts' objectionable. Trying to apply the same veneration to a 50 year old factory produced instrument to the esthetics of a Stradivarius is ridiculous in my opinion.
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Post by Maxwell on Dec 15, 2015 19:59:11 GMT
Playing with a bass player and especially a keyboard player, you ain't gotta play the whole chord....you ain't even gotta play all them numbers after the chord name. Keyboard player has ten fingers.... you've got four to work with and only six skrangs...
You 'can' get 'inversion thick' to the point that it sounds cluttered as hell. Simple is cleaner and better the majority of the time.
You know, you CAN play that old standard tune ANS with Am Em and the occasional Dm and it sound nice and clean. You don't have to crowbar chord the damn song.
Popcorn munchers don't know a crowbar chord from a firetruck....
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roberteaux
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Post by roberteaux on Dec 15, 2015 21:56:27 GMT
I never looked at guitar in terms of right and wrong. Only what sounds good and what sounds bad, that's it. Well, a Dmaj7 sound wrong and D6 sounds good. IF you are strumming them. But as I said-- in the case I'm speaking of here, you're not strumming all the way through the chord, but are instead doing a pinch and then arpeggiating a couple of notes. You can skip the chords altogether and just play the pinch and single notes without fingering the chord at all. And that was how I started this post: wondering why anybody would put the entire chord in place. --Rob |
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Post by Bill h on Dec 15, 2015 22:11:25 GMT
I never looked at guitar in terms of right and wrong. Only what sounds good and what sounds bad, that's it. Well, a Dmaj7 sound wrong and D6 sounds good. IF you are strumming them. But as I said-- in the case I'm speaking of here, you're not strumming all the way through the chord, but are instead doing a pinch and then arpeggiating a couple of notes. You can skip the chords altogether and just play the pinch and single notes without fingering the chord at all. And that was how I started this post: wondering why anybody would put the entire chord in place. --Rob Understood. Just easier and faster for me just from a muscle memory standpoint which you already learned about from Friggs post. There's really no right or wrong when it comes to that sort of thing. That is what I was trying say:) |
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roberteaux
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Post by roberteaux on Dec 16, 2015 0:19:17 GMT
Well, a Dmaj7 sound wrong and D6 sounds good. IF you are strumming them. But as I said-- in the case I'm speaking of here, you're not strumming all the way through the chord, but are instead doing a pinch and then arpeggiating a couple of notes. You can skip the chords altogether and just play the pinch and single notes without fingering the chord at all. And that was how I started this post: wondering why anybody would put the entire chord in place. --Rob Understood. Just easier and faster for me just from a muscle memory standpoint which you already learned about from Friggs post. There's really no right or wrong when it comes to that sort of thing. That is what I was trying say:) Okie... got it!  But here's where I was going: When I learned to play "Dream a Little Dream of Me" ala Pete Seeger, I found this guy who did the usual: talking about chords, while pinching two notes of it and not using any of the other tones that produced the chord. Which led to my earlier dilemma, as I described in the OP. So, what I did was to play the thing by just pinching/plucking the right notes. Hooray, now I could play the song! And I have the muscle memory thing going full blast with that song, even though I am not forming full chord shapes. After that, I learned a bunch of stuff that called for brief arpeggiations and the use of full or partial chords strummed, along with arpeggiated notes. And so I never wondered: why would anybody form the full chord, because in the case of these next songs the full chord was usually strummed, with some arpeggiated embellishments along the way. However, the version of the song "Bridge Over Troubled Water" that I am tangling with is fully arpeggiated. You don't strum anything even once. It's like "Dust in the Wind" or "Landslide" in that sense. So, once again I wondered why anybody would bother to play the full chord, if all you were gonna do is pinch here and pluck there. I provided my reasoning for why you would do that by saying that I subsequently discovered that if you *did* want a strummed version of the same song in the same key, you could simply play the chords that were mentioned as part of the instruction. When you said "sounds good" and "doesn't sound good" I agreed and told you that if you wanted a strummed version of the same song then you would have to use the chords that were named by the instructor... because the use of alternate chords that are easier because one has used them more often wouldn't sound good. Hence, even though it's easier to form that Dmaj7 than the full D6 (for me, that is, and only because before this I only learned two songs that seem to use sixths at all, and I don't play 'em much) you still want to use a D6 form because if you wish, you can now strum the song and it will sound just fine. Which brings us to this moment. So here's the final thing. I really *did* learn to play a song and developed muscle memory that allowed me to play it. BUT, I cannot strum that same song because a couple of the chords that were played partially as an arpeggiation got bumped out of the picture by my lazy self... and so I haven't really developed them. They're things like diminished sevenths and others that I have never found in any other song at all... And because I didn't learn them correctly the first time. I cannot strum "Dream a Little Dream of Me", muscle memory and good sound notwithstanding. Now, I don't mean to belabor the point, but here's what I was trying to say a couple of posts ago: there's a reason that these guys were telling me to use this or that chord, even though I wasn't understanding it. It's because those chords *are* the song... and if you want to change styles (arpeggiated or strummed) and you want to stay in the same key, you better learn those chords! And so now I'm working on "Dream a Little Dream of Me" all over again. Gotta get those dim7's under control... It never ends! --Rob |
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Post by Bill h on Dec 16, 2015 3:58:29 GMT
Yep, it never ends does it. Muscle memory can work against you to. What I'm saying is that the one thing harder then learning something new is undoing bad habits on guitar. Going back and learning chords and riffs you have played wrong for years is way harder then learning it right the first time.
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Post by Schidney on Dec 16, 2015 4:10:11 GMT
Yep, it never ends does it. Muscle memory can work against you to. What I'm saying is that the one thing harder then learning something new is undoing bad habits on guitar. Going back and learning chords and riffs you have played wrong for years is way harder then learning it right the first time. All to true. That's why I'm a bass player.  |
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roberteaux
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Post by roberteaux on Dec 16, 2015 5:08:35 GMT
Yep, it never ends does it. Muscle memory can work against you to. What I'm saying is that the one thing harder then learning something new is undoing bad habits on guitar. Going back and learning chords and riffs you have played wrong for years is way harder then learning it right the first time. That's what tripped me out-- to realize that muscle memory can work against you! I was also surprised because the answer was right in front of me the whole time... that is, a couple of years ago I was taught another song that called for full arpeggiation... and when I say "full", I mean that almost every note in each chord was played and so you really did have to form the whole chord or you couldn't play the song. And a couple of those chords were really, really weird ones that I never saw before... with funky names like D#maj9#11(no 3rd)... Not kidding about that name, either. I just copied and pasted it from somewhere else just to make sure I didn't screw anything up!  Anyway, while learning that chord and another one, I actually took to strumming through the song... which continued to sound like itself, although strummed. And yet, I've been all mucked up with confusion with that other crap I finally sorted out in my head-- and just within the last 48 hours, too! Yes, I am saying that you guys have actually lived to see me learn! Do you have any idea of just how rare it is to witness this? My thing is mainly more of a "live and don't learn" kind of way... But anyway, I should have actually known all of what I was puzzled about-- and even somewhat miffed by-- when I started this thread... I think I got derailed because until "Bridge Over Troubled Water" came along, everything I played that was fully arpeggiated did use every note of ever chord I was forming. The one exception to this was "Landslide", where my notes indicated an Em, but really, just one note of it was used. But even with stuff by James Taylor, one does play pretty much every note of every chord formed through the song-- at least, in the one song of his I actually know. But in that song, not only will you be playing every note, but you'll even add notes. Every time that guy lands on a D or an A, you end up twiddling through Dsus2 to D to Dsus4... or some combination thereof. Same with A. But there's no chord in there where the basic triad isn't played-- not like this Paul Simon song or the Pete Seeger one. The only things that made sense were what you and Frank were saying about muscle memory. And then, it finally occurred to me to strum my way through "Bridge", which is when I found out you don't want that Dmaj7, and why it had to be a D6. And that is when I also realized: I'm gonna have to get those dim7's under control too, and start using the full C chord that the song starts with as well. I want to be able to strum it, if some reason to do so should come to pass. How embarrassing this has been! But, I thank you guys for your input, along with Rizla, who once took especial pains to give me some insight into diminished sevenths. (Nice to see you, Sid!) Scary stuff, man. Just when you think you know something, you find out that no-- you don't! Humility-- it is endless. It was an extra kick in the nuts for me to realize that I should have been able to figure all this stuff out by what I had already done in the past too. And that's the scariest part of it all: when you see just how dumb you can be! Meh. My life sucks. --Rob |
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Post by Bill h on Dec 16, 2015 5:23:48 GMT
Frustration is mother of all the guitar players enemy's. I think your way ahead of the curve compared to a lot of folks as you recognize a problem then deal with it. You just sounded a little frustrated, don't be, it's a part of it for sure but just keep on keep'in on and the lights will start to come on.
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Post by Catfish on Dec 16, 2015 11:23:24 GMT
Muscle memory only works against you if the muscle only has the one memory...
I can't speak for guys who finger an entire barre chord, only to pluck a double stop.
Different voicings, however, those are a big hammer in my bag of tricks.
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Post by Schidney on Dec 16, 2015 11:55:24 GMT
I always called it finger memory not muscle memory. Is that the term used in the States? Like we say a plec(trum) & you guys say a pick? Always remember in my younger days I would see these guys pumping away on them finger grip things telling me they were building up the muscles in their fingers...Ummmm, there's no muscles in the fingers lads. Sorry to burst yer bubble. To this day I've no idea if those things actually work. Might do some good for the palm & forearm muscles I suppose. Anyway...Nevermind me, just typing out loud.  |
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Post by gooner on Dec 16, 2015 14:57:55 GMT
Playing with a bass player and especially a keyboard player, you ain't gotta play the whole chord....you ain't even gotta play all them numbers after the chord name. Keyboard player has ten fingers.... you've got four to work with and only six skrangs... You 'can' get 'inversion thick' to the point that it sounds cluttered as hell. Simple is cleaner and better the majority of the time. You know, you CAN play that old standard tune ANS with Am Em and the occasional Dm and it sound nice and clean. You don't have to crowbar chord the damn song. Popcorn munchers don't know a crowbar chord from a firetruck.... This is something I've been noticing. As our band expands, with each additional instrument you hear less and less guitar, unless your into a boosted part like a solo or added plinky bits. Especially noticed with bass and keys. So end result is only a narrow part of your sound cuts through, or am I mistaken? |
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Post by Mindfrigg on Dec 16, 2015 15:13:35 GMT
Yep, it never ends does it. Muscle memory can work against you to. What I'm saying is that the one thing harder then learning something new is undoing bad habits on guitar. Going back and learning chords and riffs you have played wrong for years is way harder then learning it right the first time. All to true. That's why I'm a bass player. Sure. That's why. |
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Post by Mindfrigg on Dec 16, 2015 15:17:44 GMT
Playing with a bass player and especially a keyboard player, you ain't gotta play the whole chord....you ain't even gotta play all them numbers after the chord name. Keyboard player has ten fingers.... you've got four to work with and only six skrangs... You 'can' get 'inversion thick' to the point that it sounds cluttered as hell. Simple is cleaner and better the majority of the time. You know, you CAN play that old standard tune ANS with Am Em and the occasional Dm and it sound nice and clean. You don't have to crowbar chord the damn song. Popcorn munchers don't know a crowbar chord from a firetruck.... This is something I've been noticing. As our band expands, with each additional instrument you hear less and less guitar, unless your into a boosted part like a solo or added plinky bits. Especially noticed with bass and keys. So end result is only a narrow part of your sound cuts through, or am I mistaken? Been a while since I've played with others, but from the standpoint of recorded arrangements, yes, one instrument can step on the frequency spectrum of another. Like doubling...you can get a chorusing sound. You don't always want that as it smears that frequency and if it's a fundamental it just blurs something that should be focused. if that makes sense. |
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Post by Schidney on Dec 16, 2015 16:32:04 GMT
I always called it finger memory not muscle memory. Is that the term used in the States? Like we say a plec(trum) & you guys say a pick? Always remember in my younger days I would see these guys pumping away on them finger grip things telling me they were building up the muscles in their fingers...Ummmm, there's no muscles in the fingers lads. Sorry to burst yer bubble. To this day I've no idea if those things actually work. Might do some good for the palm & forearm muscles I suppose. Anyway...Nevermind me, just typing out loud. I never used that out new smilie as it wasn't there when I posted that! Who did that? C'mon own up one of you 3 reprobates. Bet it was Edro. Some cool new smilies though.      |
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Post by Maxwell on Dec 16, 2015 16:44:13 GMT
Playing with a bass player and especially a keyboard player, you ain't gotta play the whole chord....you ain't even gotta play all them numbers after the chord name. Keyboard player has ten fingers.... you've got four to work with and only six skrangs... You 'can' get 'inversion thick' to the point that it sounds cluttered as hell. Simple is cleaner and better the majority of the time. You know, you CAN play that old standard tune ANS with Am Em and the occasional Dm and it sound nice and clean. You don't have to crowbar chord the damn song. Popcorn munchers don't know a crowbar chord from a firetruck.... This is something I've been noticing. As our band expands, with each additional instrument you hear less and less guitar, unless your into a boosted part like a solo or added plinky bits. Especially noticed with bass and keys. So end result is only a narrow part of your sound cuts through, or am I mistaken? Well, sometimes the more you play the less you're heard. Played with folks before that loved all those weird ass chords in everything. Stand alone, sounded nice. With everybody playing, couldn't tell just what the funk was going on... I've considered a marker board with staffs so I could show just WHY some things sounded like dogshit when someone got chord happy. Folks just don't listen to each other will enough... You don't even have to read music to see some Charlie Foxtrots written out on staffs... If a chord looks like a bag of marshmallows that got hot in a car, FUBAR... Space gives music life... Imagine a group of fifty drunk rednecks singing a Gregorian Chant... |
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Post by thumpalumpacus on Dec 16, 2015 19:10:38 GMT
I like playing with chord fragments and different voicings for this exact reason -- I can take a song and transform it stylistically without to much drama, and oftentimes on the fly. I've learnt a lot playing fingerstyle songs as strummers, and turning a strummer into a picker ... or recasting a song into a different genre, using the voicings associated with that genre.
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Post by Maxwell on Dec 17, 2015 2:35:43 GMT
My late bro that played as far back as I can remember beat it in my head when I started learning instruments, "Sometimes it's more important what you don't play than what you do..."
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roberteaux
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Post by roberteaux on Dec 17, 2015 2:58:34 GMT
My late bro that played as far back as I can remember beat it in my head when I started learning instruments, "Sometimes it's more important what you don't play than what you do..." Took me a while to truly understand *that*... but then one night I heard somebody covering something and noticed that he embellished what was pretty much a straight-forward rock song with a lot of curlicue fills and stuff until the song sounded bloated and kinda stupid. Overdone, overwrought, and slightly cacophonous even though the player was a good one. It was his arrangement that sucked-- too busy! The whole thing reminds me of that bit in the Beverly Hillbillies, where Jed carved a perfect bust of granny out of a chunk of oak, and Mr. Drysdale asked how he did it. Jed said that he simply removed everything that didn't look like Granny... Later on in life, I learned that actually, the show's writers had ripped off something called "The Methodist Quarterly Review”, which published a very similar comment in 1858-- and that the reference wasn't originally humorous. But you never forget the well where you got your first water, and so to me it was the Wisdom of Jed... and kinda still is. At least, I liked the way he said it best. And so yeah: sometimes it really is more important what you don't play. I get it. --Rob |
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Post by Schidney on Dec 17, 2015 3:13:55 GMT
Same here Rab, couldn't figure out the concept of when not to play for a good few years. Used to fill up every song with as much as I could pack in there, like a demented busy wee bee on speed.  |
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Post by Maxwell on Dec 17, 2015 3:26:15 GMT
Glad I made some sense..... But I ain't be knowin nuttin...  |
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Post by Schidney on Dec 17, 2015 3:44:00 GMT
Glad I made some sense..... But I ain't be knowin nuttin... When Grasshopper understands he ain't be knowin' nuttin, Grasshopper on path to enlightenment.  |
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Post by Schidney on Dec 17, 2015 3:59:45 GMT
I'd quite like to make my own smiley but not sure how to go about it. Been looking online at smiley generators but they all kind of suck. Has to be an animated one. Got a very specific idea in mind & I have some skills in computer art & animation. So any suggestions would be very much appreciated. EDIT: Such a silly bugger...meant to post this in the looking glass thread. What a dumb ass. |
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Post by Maxwell on Dec 17, 2015 4:33:15 GMT
Glad I made some sense..... But I ain't be knowin nuttin... When Grasshopper understands he ain't be knowin' nuttin, Grasshopper on path to enlightenment. |
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roberteaux
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Post by roberteaux on Dec 17, 2015 4:50:14 GMT
Glad I made some sense..... But I ain't be knowin nuttin... Oh, glad you reminded me: I signed that NDA you sent me-- the third one, where I had to agree never to suggest you know anything-- and it's all notarized and everything. Got a copy of it on record at the county clerk's office too, just like you wanted. Can't help but to feel that you don't quite trust me.  Anyway, you should be getting the documents in the mail in the next day. I paid extra to express 'em to you. --Rob |
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