|
Post by infant on Oct 31, 2021 5:06:41 GMT
It’s funny but I’ve got a ‘72 Ovation Balladeer that I have never really taken great care of. Up until 3 years ago, when I finally bought a proper molded case, it spent all of its life inside one of those thin cardboard guitar cases in my finished basement during humid summers and dry winters. With a carbon fibre bowl (sides and back) and a solid spruce top, you would think the humidity changes would wreak havoc on the joint between the dissimilar materials. Yet, the guitar is still in awesome shape and still plays well. However, humidifying my Martin and ES-137 worry me the most these days. I have a 74 Balladeer 1621-4 that I bought new and never looked after. They often crack on the top because of the different expansion coefficients between the wood and the bowl. Mine has no cracks but the bridge came flying off it when I was in rezies at Queen's. The place was really dry and my neighbor who was musician and had humidifiers going all the time warned me about it. Ovation fixed it under warranty. Didn’t your Balladeer have the little pearl dots on it? Mine has these dots covering 2 screws that hold down the bridge.
|
|
|
Post by george on Oct 31, 2021 12:01:38 GMT
Yes, it had the two dots. The bridge lifted about 3/8” evenly all the way across the back half and appeared to lift a small amount of the top surface as well suggesting a glue joint. Looking at it at the time I thought it was glued and I’d never taken much notice of the two dots; I thought they were ornamental. The guitar was about 22 years old when this happened and the dots by that time were well blended into the the wood of the bridge. They put a new bridge on it and when I got it back the luthier said it won’t lift again. On the new bridge, the dots looked more like they had been glued into holes and less like ornimentation. I thought at the time that what he meant by won’t lift again was that they’d used screws where the bridge dots were. When he was checking damage initially he used a thin piece of metal like a large feeler gauge to fish around under the lifted bridge; maybe he was checking to see if it had screws or not. The repair was done by a certified Ovation place in Toronto. The guitar has the electric pickup and preamp. A very rugged instrument; this one has been everywhere and is in good condition. Needs frets though.
|
|
|
Post by stratosphere on Oct 31, 2021 13:05:39 GMT
I once heard that if you've had a guitar in the same climate/environment for a number of years it's adapted & you may not need to use a humidifier Anybody else ever hear that? Hi Zontar, Yes, I`ve heard that, and in places with no seasonal changes it may be true....like Arizona or New Mexico for example, but I wouldn`t want to try it at my place. My music room is humidified, but the rest of the house could dip down into the 30% relative humidity range on a cold day in January with all the electric heat on. Contrast that to a rainy August with relative humidity staying in the 80% range for days or weeks.... definitely strtetching glue joints and causing the top to go convex from shrinkage. I watched an interview with Bryan Kimsey in which he made reference to a guitar that spent it`s life in Hawaii and then got sold and shipped to Arizona. It had issues shortly thereafter and required a neck reset etc. Years ago, I noticed that my acoustics would go out of tune a little bit if temps in the music room change by 3*C or the humidity changed by 10 points, so I don`t let that happen. To me it was a definite indicator of how damage begins. Regards,
|
|
|
Post by zontar on Nov 1, 2021 6:29:31 GMT
I once heard that if you've had a guitar in the same climate/environment for a number of years it's adapted & you may not need to use a humidifier Anybody else ever hear that? Hi Zontar, Yes, I`ve heard that, and in places with no seasonal changes it may be true....like Arizona or New Mexico for example, but I wouldn`t want to try it at my place. My music room is humidified, but the rest of the house could dip down into the 30% relative humidity range on a cold day in January with all the electric heat on. Contrast that to a rainy August with relative humidity staying in the 80% range for days or weeks.... definitely strtetching glue joints and causing the top to go convex from shrinkage. I watched an interview with Bryan Kimsey in which he made reference to a guitar that spent it`s life in Hawaii and then got sold and shipped to Arizona. It had issues shortly thereafter and required a neck reset etc. Years ago, I noticed that my acoustics would go out of tune a little bit if temps in the music room change by 3*C or the humidity changed by 10 points, so I don`t let that happen. To me it was a definite indicator of how damage begins. Regards, Well we don't have electric heat. And a more consistent climate. But I am considering additional humidifier options
|
|
|
Post by stratosphere on Nov 1, 2021 10:48:53 GMT
Hi Zontar, Yes, I`ve heard that, and in places with no seasonal changes it may be true....like Arizona or New Mexico for example, but I wouldn`t want to try it at my place. My music room is humidified, but the rest of the house could dip down into the 30% relative humidity range on a cold day in January with all the electric heat on. Contrast that to a rainy August with relative humidity staying in the 80% range for days or weeks.... definitely strtetching glue joints and causing the top to go convex from shrinkage. I watched an interview with Bryan Kimsey in which he made reference to a guitar that spent it`s life in Hawaii and then got sold and shipped to Arizona. It had issues shortly thereafter and required a neck reset etc. Years ago, I noticed that my acoustics would go out of tune a little bit if temps in the music room change by 3*C or the humidity changed by 10 points, so I don`t let that happen. To me it was a definite indicator of how damage begins. Regards, Well we don't have electric heat. And a more consistent climate. But I am considering additional humidifier options Lucky you... I wish the climate here was more stable...It would save me from having to buy filters and service my dehumidifier and humidifier. An interesting point....I know a guy down the street who has an older inexpensive (Cort maybe? can`t remember) guitar with mahogany back and sides that I did a partial refret on. It was ladder braced, built like a tank, and weighed alot more than the dreads i have. It`s never seen humidification, or any kind of consideration from what I`ve been told, and it`s still playable without a reset...I bet it`s 30+ years old. Cheers,
|
|
|
Post by george on Nov 3, 2021 1:10:33 GMT
Well we don't have electric heat. And a more consistent climate. But I am considering additional humidifier options ... It`s never seen humidification, or any kind of consideration from what I`ve been told, and it`s still playable without a reset...I bet it`s 30+ years old. Friend of mine from HS got Fender 12 string be something like a 1977. Back then it was a very easy to play 12 with good action. I played that guitar a good few times back then. Seen him again a few years ago and played the 12; it hadn't changed. This guy could not spell humidity and looking after anything was a lost concept on him so the guitar survived a lot of neglect and I don't think he even has a case for it. He can rebuild harley motors pretty good so that's something but that's about it .. lol
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2021 22:59:22 GMT
When I hear all the stories about humidity variations and the changes it creates in guitars, I really appreciate living where I am. I'm on the inner coast of Vancouver Island, and have lived as close as 500 feet from the ocean and as far away as five miles, and over the last 55 years I've lived with oil heat, electric heat, a heat pump, and hot water heating. I've never had to adjust a truss rod or do anything to regulate humidity and my instruments have always been rock solid. I'm sure I'm lucky compared to a lot of guys in other geographical locations.
|
|
|
Post by infant on Nov 4, 2021 1:00:34 GMT
When I hear all the stories about humidity variations and the changes it creates in guitars, I really appreciate living where I am. I'm on the inner coast of Vancouver Island, and have lived as close as 500 feet from the ocean and as far away as five miles, and over the last 55 years I've lived with oil heat, electric heat, a heat pump, and hot water heating. I've never had to adjust a truss rod or do anything to regulate humidity and my instruments have always been rock solid. I'm sure I'm lucky compared to a lot of guys in other geographical locations. Only after I bought my Martin did I start worrying about humidity. Over the next couple of years, i bought a couple of Gibsons and found that I would get a static crackle when I rubbed my hand on their necks or bodies in the winter. Case humidifiers do nothing for this problemThe crackling goes away in the summer or when the humidity is above 50%. In the winter, it gets down to about 40% and the cracking starts. Temperature in the basement hovers between 69-72 degrees year round. That being said, I’ve never had to adjust a truss rod on any of my guitars due to temperature or humidity changes.
|
|
|
Post by markr on Nov 4, 2021 1:23:12 GMT
Please help me with the ideal range is for humidity ? I live in a cold (-36c) and hot desert(+36C) with variable relative humidity .
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2021 1:52:53 GMT
A few years back, I had one window, in my bedroom that was sweating and producing moisture on the glass in the winter. My landlord lent me a dehumidifier that I ran through the winter in that room. It was reading 50 when it started and I continued at that setting as long as it ran. Never had an issue of any kind. Normally, I would have a dozen or so of my guitars and basses stored in that room before, during, or after using the dehumidifier.
Incidentally, after a few years, getting tired of running the dehum all winter, I asked the landlord to buy me one of those storm window kits that you install inside....double-sided tape all around the interior window trim, clear plastic that you attached loosely, and then tightened up by heating with a hair-dryer. Never had any moisture problems on the glass after that. I used to leave that plastic up all year round and was surprised how much cooler the room was, even in the summer heat.
|
|
|
Post by infant on Nov 4, 2021 3:12:13 GMT
|
|
|
Post by zontar on Nov 6, 2021 20:06:17 GMT
Well this thread is functioning as a reminder--I will be checking mine later today
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2021 17:00:35 GMT
All this talk about humidity got me curious about my Fender F65 acoustic. It hasn't been out of the case in years, and I wondered if it might have some fret sprout or anything else unexpected. I checked it, and everything is stable. However, last time I played it, many years ago, everything was hunky-dory....Now, there's a rattle on the first fret position of the low E string, almost as if the first fret was too high, but it hasn't moved. I have a hunch the low E groove in the nut is worn marginally too deep, so I need to try a piece of paper in the slot to see if that solves it. I've never replaced the nut on it and it's over 40 years old, so I guess I should consider it, although it might be another ten years before the case gets opened again, lol.
|
|
|
Post by infant on Nov 10, 2021 4:16:51 GMT
All this talk about humidity got me curious about my Fender F65 acoustic. It hasn't been out of the case in years, and I wondered if it might have some fret sprout or anything else unexpected. I checked it, and everything is stable. However, last time I played it, many years ago, everything was hunky-dory....Now, there's a rattle on the first fret position of the low E string, almost as if the first fret was too high, but it hasn't moved. I have a hunch the low E groove in the nut is worn marginally too deep, so I need to try a piece of paper in the slot to see if that solves it. I've never replaced the nut on it and it's over 40 years old, so I guess I should consider it, although it might be another ten years before the case gets opened again, lol. Use crazy glue and baking soda to build up a deep slot. I’ve done it in the past with excellent results. Here, Dan Erlewine from Stew Mac shows you how to do it with their new nut repair powders but baking soda works just as well.
|
|
|
Post by markr on Nov 10, 2021 11:25:56 GMT
All this talk about humidity got me curious about my Fender F65 acoustic. It hasn't been out of the case in years, and I wondered if it might have some fret sprout or anything else unexpected. I checked it, and everything is stable. However, last time I played it, many years ago, everything was hunky-dory....Now, there's a rattle on the first fret position of the low E string, almost as if the first fret was too high, but it hasn't moved. I have a hunch the low E groove in the nut is worn marginally too deep, so I need to try a piece of paper in the slot to see if that solves it. I've never replaced the nut on it and it's over 40 years old, so I guess I should consider it, although it might be another ten years before the case gets opened again, lol. I lived on the Island and I would think you may have the opposite problem with high humidity at certain times of the year.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2021 21:29:52 GMT
One of the things I heard or read somewhere previously related to plastic bindings on vintage instruments deteriorating more when guitars are cased for extended periods of time. I took this to mean that there's a humidity component to what's happening. So, if I'm interpreting that correctly, doesn't that also imply that a plastic nut might also be impacted in the same way as plastic binding in a guitar that's cased for an extended period of time? I can't understand another reason why a guitar that plays perfectly when it goes into the case comes out after an long period of time and seems to have shrunk in a way that causes the low E string to sit lower in the nut and rattle against the first fret.
There's no science in this and I'm extrapolating to try to understand what has happened rather than stating a known fact.....Does plastic shrink or distort in some way when it's enclosed in a small environment? Or is there some other factor that influences why plastic bindings deteriorate in guitars that are cased for extended periods of time? I now I've heard more about failed bindings on older Gretsch guitars....Does that have more to do with the storage conditions, or is it more related to the chemical makeup of the plastic used in bindings?
|
|
|
Post by Die Bullen on Nov 10, 2021 22:19:41 GMT
One of the things I heard or read somewhere previously related to plastic bindings on vintage instruments deteriorating more when guitars are cased for extended periods of time. I took this to mean that there's a humidity component to what's happening. So, if I'm interpreting that correctly, doesn't that also imply that a plastic nut might also be impacted in the same way as plastic binding in a guitar that's cased for an extended period of time? I can't understand another reason why a guitar that plays perfectly when it goes into the case comes out after an long period of time and seems to have shrunk in a way that causes the low E string to sit lower in the nut and rattle against the first fret. There's no science in this and I'm extrapolating to try to understand what has happened rather than stating a known fact.....Does plastic shrink or distort in some way when it's enclosed in a small environment? Or is there some other factor that influences why plastic bindings deteriorate in guitars that are cased for extended periods of time? I now I've heard more about failed bindings on older Gretsch guitars....Does that have more to do with the storage conditions, or is it more related to the chemical makeup of the plastic used in bindings? My understanding about this topic is that the celluloid degrades over time and releases gases that erodes the bindings, regardless of humidity. I've also heard that storing in a case exacerbates this issue because the gases have nowhere to go so opening the cases periodically is important
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2021 0:41:25 GMT
My understanding about this topic is that the celluloid degrades over time and releases gases that erodes the bindings, regardless of humidity. I've also heard that storing in a case exacerbates this issue because the gases have nowhere to go so opening the cases periodically is important Ah, that makes a certain amount of sense to me now. So, it probably means that humidity isn't a factor as far as bindings deteriorating, and there's a likelihood that plastic bindings are a different chemical makeup than other plastics such as nuts.
I'm still puzzling over why my Fender played great when I put it in the case, but has developed this issue with the nut over time. Going back to what Rob suggested about building up the low-E slot with baking soda and crazy glue, I've never tried it but probably would if it didn't involve buying tools. I don't have any nut files to re-cut the slot for the string. I suspect I'll probably either replace the nut or maybe install a Zero Glide nut.
|
|
|
Post by infant on Nov 11, 2021 1:32:41 GMT
One of the things I heard or read somewhere previously related to plastic bindings on vintage instruments deteriorating more when guitars are cased for extended periods of time. I took this to mean that there's a humidity component to what's happening. So, if I'm interpreting that correctly, doesn't that also imply that a plastic nut might also be impacted in the same way as plastic binding in a guitar that's cased for an extended period of time? I can't understand another reason why a guitar that plays perfectly when it goes into the case comes out after an long period of time and seems to have shrunk in a way that causes the low E string to sit lower in the nut and rattle against the first fret. There's no science in this and I'm extrapolating to try to understand what has happened rather than stating a known fact.....Does plastic shrink or distort in some way when it's enclosed in a small environment? Or is there some other factor that influences why plastic bindings deteriorate in guitars that are cased for extended periods of time? I now I've heard more about failed bindings on older Gretsch guitars....Does that have more to do with the storage conditions, or is it more related to the chemical makeup of the plastic used in bindings? My understanding about this topic is that the celluloid degrades over time and releases gases that erodes the bindings, regardless of humidity. I've also heard that storing in a case exacerbates this issue because the gases have nowhere to go so opening the cases periodically is important This is correct. The celluloid outgases terribly and the gases can sometimes attack the hardware plating too. It’s why most pickguards are now made with a polyester type material. All plastics outgas to some degree. Just check the film that builds up on the inside of the windshield of your car (if you are a non-smoker). Back in the mid ‘80s, the automotive companies demanded that plastics suppliers come up with plastics that had less outgassing (vinyl was the worst, hence the move to cloth seating). Sure, they still outgas , but nowhere near as bad as the ‘70s and ‘80s. However, back to nuts, plastic nuts can be made from many different materials with corian and micarta being two of the better plastic ones. Cheaper nuts are usually made of ABS which is a decent firm and stable material. I don’t think that Ken’s problem is with the nut but rather the wood of the guitar. Over the years, the wood has swollen then dried out and then swollen again etc. from season to season, causing the soundboard/bridge to possibly move and/or frets to lift or shift. Wood, especially unfinished wood, is much more hygroscopic than plastic.
|
|
|
Post by infant on Nov 11, 2021 1:40:37 GMT
My understanding about this topic is that the celluloid degrades over time and releases gases that erodes the bindings, regardless of humidity. I've also heard that storing in a case exacerbates this issue because the gases have nowhere to go so opening the cases periodically is important Ah, that makes a certain amount of sense to me now. So, it probably means that humidity isn't a factor as far as bindings deteriorating, and there's a likelihood that plastic bindings are a different chemical makeup than other plastics such as nuts.
I'm still puzzling over why my Fender played great when I put it in the case, but has developed this issue with the nut over time. Going back to what Rob suggested about building up the low-E slot with baking soda and crazy glue, I've never tried it but probably would if it didn't involve buying tools. I don't have any nut files to re-cut the slot for the string. I suspect I'll probably either replace the nut or maybe install a Zero Glide nut.
Use a wound guitar string as a file. Just don’t fill the slot up with too much baking soda as you don’t want to do too much filing
|
|
|
Post by george on Nov 16, 2021 2:02:33 GMT
Filter for my humidifier arrived to day. It came from Arizona which is kinda ironic. Used to be I could drive 10 minutes to a store and buy one; now it has to be air freighted in. Something ain't right in this big old world.
|
|
|
Post by infant on Nov 16, 2021 5:03:50 GMT
Filter for my humidifier arrived to day. It came from Arizona which is kinda ironic. Used to be I could drive 10 minutes to a store and buy one; now it has to be air freighted in. Something ain't right in this big old world. You should have ordered a couple of them if it’s the only place to get them.
|
|
|
Post by stratosphere on Nov 16, 2021 13:28:24 GMT
Supply chain problems lead people to binge purchasing, multiplying the problem I believe. Not much one can do about it I suppose. i bought 3 humidifier filters last spring when I put the thing away for the season, and it turned out to be a good move as my local Canadian Tire had none the other day.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2021 21:01:20 GMT
Be glad you already own a dehumidifier, George.....They're a hot item in BC right now because of all the flood damage. I know people who've tried to rent them in the last few days, but there isn't much to choose from.
|
|
|
Post by george on Nov 16, 2021 22:55:47 GMT
Filter for my humidifier arrived to day. It came from Arizona which is kinda ironic. Used to be I could drive 10 minutes to a store and buy one; now it has to be air freighted in. Something ain't right in this big old world. You should have ordered a couple of them if it’s the only place to get them. Yeah, I was thinking that later but when I ordered it it was from a Canadian-based website.
|
|
|
Post by george on Nov 16, 2021 22:56:50 GMT
Be glad you already own a dehumidifier, George.....They're a hot item in BC right now because of all the flood damage. I know people who've tried to rent them in the last few days, but there isn't much to choose from. Yeah, it gets pretty humid here in the summer so it’s nice to have a dehumidifier to clean the place up a bit.
|
|
|
Post by george on Nov 16, 2021 23:12:30 GMT
I'm back in the zone .. lol
|
|
|
Post by george on Nov 16, 2021 23:17:41 GMT
Supply chain problems lead people to binge purchasing, multiplying the problem I believe. Not much one can do about it I suppose. i bought 3 humidifier filters last spring when I put the thing away for the season, and it turned out to be a good move as my local Canadian Tire had none the other day. When I heard that the ontario government was gonna ban incandescent light bulbs a few years ago I went out and bought about $400 worth of them. I haven't used any of them yet still have a few from the stash that I had before the binge. I'll probably have to leave them to someone in my will ...lol
|
|
|
Post by Die Bullen on Nov 17, 2021 0:02:51 GMT
Supply chain problems lead people to binge purchasing, multiplying the problem I believe. Not much one can do about it I suppose. i bought 3 humidifier filters last spring when I put the thing away for the season, and it turned out to be a good move as my local Canadian Tire had none the other day. When I heard that the ontario government was gonna ban incandescent light bulbs a few years ago I went out and bought about $400 worth of them. I haven't used any of them yet still have a few from the stash that I had before the binge. I'll probably have to leave them to someone in my will ...lol Wow really? You are old school! Personally I have nothing against LED's, although I didn't like those lousy CFL's
|
|
|
Post by george on Nov 17, 2021 0:20:40 GMT
When I heard that the ontario government was gonna ban incandescent light bulbs a few years ago I went out and bought about $400 worth of them. I haven't used any of them yet still have a few from the stash that I had before the binge. I'll probably have to leave them to someone in my will ...lol Wow really? You are old school! Personally I have nothing against LED's, although I didn't like those lousy CFL's Old school and more than a bit stubborn ...lol
|
|