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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2021 13:58:02 GMT
How big a deal do you think tube matching is?
I have a 1970 Twin enclosed in a head cabinet that I bought as a chassis with a matched quad of Tube Amp Doctor 6L6 short bottles. One tube began to bloom several years ago and since then, I've been running it with two power tubes. (I have a Weber Z-Matcher that matches the amp output to an 8 ohm load)
I've been thinking about buying a single TAD 6L6 short bottle to go back to a four power tube configuration. I can't justify the price of a matched quad and wondered how big an issue one unmatched tube will be. I know years ago, we never worried about tube matching and randomly replaced weak or damaged tubes.
Your thoughts?
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Post by Die Bullen on Jun 4, 2021 15:14:21 GMT
I generally buy matched power tubes unless the amp is in for service and the tech matches them himself. I haven't found that buying matched tubes carries that much of a premium- Tube Depot will match for free if you buy more than 2 at a time.
How important is it? I certainly don't think you want two very mismatched tubes in a circuit. Personally I would just buy a matched pair and swap in the pair, and leave the two good ones in and keep the leftover good tube in the emergency kit in case a tube blows at a gig.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2021 22:33:58 GMT
I guess buying a matched pair is an option, although a bit pricey - 100.00 CDN plus about 30.00 shipping.
I'm a bit unclear about what's happening though. I know that if a person is running two power tubes in a normally-four power tube Twin, you pull either the inside pair or the outside pair. I assume this is because the two tubes that are being used are running in a push-pull arrangement. How important is it that the two pairs be the same or very close in terms of numbers? If I buy a matched pair that aren't that close to the matched pair I'm using, will that be okay, as long as the pairs are the same as the tube they're push-pulling with?
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Post by Die Bullen on Jun 5, 2021 1:08:37 GMT
I guess buying a matched pair is an option, although a bit pricey - 100.00 CDN plus about 30.00 shipping. I'm a bit unclear about what's happening though. I know that if a person is running two power tubes in a normally-four power tube Twin, you pull either the inside pair or the outside pair. I assume this is because the two tubes that are being used are running in a push-pull arrangement. How important is it that the two pairs be the same or very close in terms of numbers? If I buy a matched pair that aren't that close to the matched pair I'm using, will that be okay, as long as the pairs are the same as the tube they're push-pulling with? From what I know, pair 1 and pair 2 do not have to match (i.e a matched quad). I may be wrong but even 4 mismatched tubes would work, they just wouldn't sound optimal
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2021 1:44:35 GMT
I'm kicking around the idea of offering to trade amps with someone. I'm still not sure it's a good idea, but I thought it would be easier to present the idea to the owner of the other amp if my Twin Reverb was 100%. So, that's where the idea of returning to the four power tube configuration started.
There's a guy advertising a really mint-looking Super Twin Reverb and asking 900.00. I think that's top dollar for that amp, but, as I said, it's in really nice shape, unmolested by heavy gigging war wounds or speaker changes, and it has the foot-switches (which are hard to come by). I recognize that high wattage amps aren't in high demand, but two things appeal to me....First, a 160 watt Fender tube amp would be more than enough power to use for bass or guitar, and getting down to one amp appeals to me. I'd be offering him my 1970 Twin Reverb and the 15" Altec Lansing 418 cabinet in exchange for his combo amp. I'm convinced I'd be happy using my Ampeg PF-210HE Portoflex cabinet for bass or guitar, and since it's rated for 450 watts, it would handle the power easily. Secondly, I've owned a Super Twin Reverb before, so I know what to expect......The Super Twin has a Presence control that I really missed when I went to the Twin Reverb. It adds an indefinable quality to the sound for guitar that the Twin lacked. I know the Super Twin Reverb is stupid-heavy....I mean, really, really heavy. If I made the deal, I'd sell the combo cabinet and speakers, and use the proceeds to buy a new Dual Showman cabinet- the higher profile cabinet that's actually got enough room inside to make tube changes easy and enough air space to properly ventilate the chassis. As a separate head and cabinet, the weight would become more manageable too.
I'm not seeking approval, but I'd be interested in your thoughts on the idea of swapping. I'm going to weigh the idea for a few days before I contact the guy.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2021 4:19:16 GMT
Well, got a bit ahead of myself....I messaged the guy with the Super Twin Reverb and proposed the trade. He's already messaged me back....He's been trying to sell the Super Twin in order to replace it with a Twin Reverb, so he's very interested. I guess we'll see what happens.
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Post by Die Bullen on Jun 5, 2021 12:13:45 GMT
Forget our approval, the only question is whether there is any significant difference in value for either amp. I don't know this either way, so I am not trying to create doubt. Also since this is vintage gear, just make sure that you won't regret the trade as we are talking a fair amount of money to buy another one if you miss it.
Other than those considerations, go for it if it feels right
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Post by infant on Jun 6, 2021 0:16:47 GMT
In the old days, no one cared about matched tubes but then again, back then, tubes were much higher quality. Do your current TAD tubes have codes on them. The Tube Store is located here in Hamilton about a 10 minute drive from my house. I’ve usually bought my matched tubes there and they have a sticker on the side to state what group it’s from. They do their own matching there and when one of my tubes went for dump years ago, I just purchased one from the same group. That being said, once tubes are used for a while, the parameters that were used to match them go out the window. So, if your tubes were from the Tube Store, order the same group number and think nothing of it. I just checked my box’o’tubes to see if I had any TAD 6L6 tubes as I tried them in my old Blues Deluxe many years ago. However, I think I gave them to the guy who bought my amp as I no longer own any 6L6 style amps. Otherwise I would have sent them to you. Check this article out: www.premierguitar.com/tube-matching-needed-or-notNow as for making this trade, you should ask when the electrolytics (filter caps) were last changed or when it was last looked at by a tech. You could be looking at $100-150 to change the caps if they are older than 10-15 years. Not trying to talk you out of the trade but rather letting you know one of the pitfalls of tube amps.
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Post by zontar on Jun 6, 2021 6:23:39 GMT
I've never replaced tubes on an amp--one of my oldest amps is a tube amp--btu I don't use it much anymore So I'm deciding if I should sell it or replace the two pong plug--and sue it more. It's a bit of beast for me to move around, but it does have nice sound.
And I do have a hybrid (The Orange Micro Dark)--but it only has one tube--so not so much you can do to match it.
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Post by infant on Jun 6, 2021 12:55:20 GMT
I've never replaced tubes on an amp--one of my oldest amps is a tube amp--btu I don't use it much anymore So I'm deciding if I should sell it or replace the two pong plug--and sue it more. It's a bit of beast for me to move around, but it does have nice sound. And I do have a hybrid (The Orange Micro Dark)--but it only has one tube--so not so much you can do to match it. Not meaning to change the topic but what is that old tube amp? If it’s over 20 yrs old, get the filter caps changed and replace the 2 prong plug and you should be good for another 15 years. Then if you want to sell it, at least you can tell the buyer it’s been serviced properly and it’s good to go.
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Post by Die Bullen on Jun 6, 2021 13:10:54 GMT
And I do have a hybrid (The Orange Micro Dark)--but it only has one tube--so not so much you can do to match it. And that orange doesn't have power tubes- there is no benefit to matching preamp tubes, even if there were 2
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2021 20:16:14 GMT
I looked at some information on The Fender Super Twin Reverb, and they apparently were built between 1977 and 1981. So, the amp's 30 years old, and the point about possibly needing recapping is a valid one. I still don't know if the trade deal's going to fly. I'll just have to wait to hear back from the seller. The T.A.D. 6L6 WGC-STR's do have a sticker on the tube bases that has some information that might be helpful in matching. My eyes aren't good enough to read the numbers, but if I do decide to move ahead with buying a single tube, I'm assuming those numbers would allow me to get a reasonably close match.
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Post by infant on Jun 6, 2021 22:10:51 GMT
I’m not sure whose rating system those numbers pertain to. Sorry, but I can’t help you there.
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Post by zontar on Jun 6, 2021 22:57:30 GMT
And I do have a hybrid (The Orange Micro Dark)--but it only has one tube--so not so much you can do to match it. And that orange doesn't have power tubes- there is no benefit to matching preamp tubes, even if there were 2 Well some hybrids have tubes for the pre amp, some for the power amp--I've seen both--but yes my amp it is tube for the preamp
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Post by infant on Jun 6, 2021 23:34:02 GMT
I looked at some information on The Fender Super Twin Reverb, and they apparently were built between 1977 and 1981. So, the amp's 30 years old, and the point about possibly needing recapping is a valid one. I still don't know if the trade deal's going to fly. I'll just have to wait to hear back from the seller. The T.A.D. 6L6 WGC-STR's do have a sticker on the tube bases that has some information that might be helpful in matching. My eyes aren't good enough to read the numbers, but if I do decide to move ahead with buying a single tube, I'm assuming those numbers would allow me to get a reasonably close match. Actually, it’s 40+ years old
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2021 23:52:54 GMT
I looked at some information on The Fender Super Twin Reverb, and they apparently were built between 1977 and 1981. So, the amp's 30 years old, and the point about possibly needing recapping is a valid one. I still don't know if the trade deal's going to fly. I'll just have to wait to hear back from the seller. The T.A.D. 6L6 WGC-STR's do have a sticker on the tube bases that has some information that might be helpful in matching. My eyes aren't good enough to read the numbers, but if I do decide to move ahead with buying a single tube, I'm assuming those numbers would allow me to get a reasonably close match. Actually, it’s 40+ years old LOL, You're right. I guess I need a copy of that book "Math For Dummies"
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Post by zontar on Jun 7, 2021 0:07:25 GMT
I've never replaced tubes on an amp--one of my oldest amps is a tube amp--btu I don't use it much anymore So I'm deciding if I should sell it or replace the two pong plug--and sue it more. It's a bit of beast for me to move around, but it does have nice sound. And I do have a hybrid (The Orange Micro Dark)--but it only has one tube--so not so much you can do to match it. Not meaning to change the topic but what is that old tube amp? If it’s over 20 yrs old, get the filter caps changed and replace the 2 prong plug and you should be good for another 15 years. Then if you want to sell it, at least you can tell the buyer it’s been serviced properly and it’s good to go. I got it used--and it is more than 20 years old. It's a Garnet Stencil, made int he 70s--so 40 some years old. As far as I know it has the original tubes but hasn't been used much for a few years due to the two prong scenario. I have seen stiuf online about the caps as well. It's kind of more a scenario of getting around to it. If I sold it without the work I would take that into account with the price, and would advise prospective buyers to get that done. I also have a solid state Garnet Stencil--which could use the same work. I almost had someone buy it, but they wanted something a bit different--and the tube one was being lent out at the time (& stored where it wasn't easy to reach) or I could probably have sold it to that same guy.) but one of these days, I'll get it done. I like the amp--but it takes up too much space. So I haven't decided if I am going to keep it or sell it. Although if I got a good offer, I would sell it.
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Post by Die Bullen on Jun 7, 2021 3:19:39 GMT
I looked at some information on The Fender Super Twin Reverb, and they apparently were built between 1977 and 1981. So, the amp's 30 years old, and the point about possibly needing recapping is a valid one. I still don't know if the trade deal's going to fly. I'll just have to wait to hear back from the seller. The T.A.D. 6L6 WGC-STR's do have a sticker on the tube bases that has some information that might be helpful in matching. My eyes aren't good enough to read the numbers, but if I do decide to move ahead with buying a single tube, I'm assuming those numbers would allow me to get a reasonably close match. As the tube had been used through the years, I would imagine that the values have changed. Of course I can't know how much how much the tube had degraded from use so I'd recommend calling one of the tube stores to ask about matching
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Post by Die Bullen on Jun 7, 2021 3:23:17 GMT
And that orange doesn't have power tubes- there is no benefit to matching preamp tubes, even if there were 2 Well some hybrids have tubes for the pre amp, some for the power amp--I've seen both--but yes my amp it is tube for the preamp Yes, but any single tube amp would almost certainly be a preamp tube. Single power tube Designs are very poor, and sometimes even dangerous. No modern manufacturer would use a design like that
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Post by infant on Jun 7, 2021 3:38:09 GMT
Well some hybrids have tubes for the pre amp, some for the power amp--I've seen both--but yes my amp it is tube for the preamp Yes, but any single tube amp would almost certainly be a preamp tube. Single power tube Designs are very poor, and sometimes even dangerous. No modern manufacturer would use a design like that What would make it dangerous? I don’t think it would be any different than having a solid state preamp on a Champ.
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Post by infant on Jun 7, 2021 3:42:58 GMT
I looked at some information on The Fender Super Twin Reverb, and they apparently were built between 1977 and 1981. So, the amp's 30 years old, and the point about possibly needing recapping is a valid one. I still don't know if the trade deal's going to fly. I'll just have to wait to hear back from the seller. The T.A.D. 6L6 WGC-STR's do have a sticker on the tube bases that has some information that might be helpful in matching. My eyes aren't good enough to read the numbers, but if I do decide to move ahead with buying a single tube, I'm assuming those numbers would allow me to get a reasonably close match. As the tube had been used through the years, I would imagine that the values have changed. Of course I can't know how much how much the tube had degraded from use so I'd recommend calling one of the tube stores to ask about matching I agree. In the article that I initially attached, they mention that tubes drift with heat and age.
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Post by zontar on Jun 7, 2021 7:28:59 GMT
Well some hybrids have tubes for the pre amp, some for the power amp--I've seen both--but yes my amp it is tube for the preamp Yes, but any single tube amp would almost certainly be a preamp tube. Single power tube Designs are very poor, and sometimes even dangerous. No modern manufacturer would use a design like that Well, I haven't done a tally of who does what & how many do it one way or the other--I just know I've seen both.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2021 13:54:19 GMT
Some of the older single tube designs, along the lines of table radios and and portable record players tend to fall into the design area of transformer-less amps that don't incorporate many safety measures. The shock hazard can be fairly extreme. One would hope that modern design criteria would eliminate some aspects that make this type of amp hazardous, such as "hot" chassis, where three wire power cords promote proper grounding.
The modern hybrid amps that utilize a shingle preamp tube and solid state power amp sections to emulate tube amp sound don't fall into this category and are likely fine.
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Post by infant on Jun 7, 2021 18:21:02 GMT
Some of the older single tube designs, along the lines of table radios and and portable record players tend to fall into the design area of transformer-less amps that don't incorporate many safety measures. The shock hazard can be fairly extreme. One would hope that modern design criteria would eliminate some aspects that make this type of amp hazardous, such as "hot" chassis, where three wire power cords promote proper grounding. The modern hybrid amps that utilize a shingle preamp tube and solid state power amp sections to emulate tube amp sound don't fall into this category and are likely fine. Many of those old amps that were sold by Eatons and Sears here in Canada were made by Pine Electronics in Quebec. They were transformerless point to point wired amps and I remember being barefoot on a cement floor and getting a huge shock when I touched my guitar. However, a properly designed amp with a SS preamp, single tube power section and 3 prong plug should be fine.
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Post by Die Bullen on Jun 8, 2021 0:18:49 GMT
Some of the older single tube designs, along the lines of table radios and and portable record players tend to fall into the design area of transformer-less amps that don't incorporate many safety measures. The shock hazard can be fairly extreme. One would hope that modern design criteria would eliminate some aspects that make this type of amp hazardous, such as "hot" chassis, where three wire power cords promote proper grounding. The modern hybrid amps that utilize a shingle preamp tube and solid state power amp sections to emulate tube amp sound don't fall into this category and are likely fine. Many of those old amps that were sold by Eatons and Sears here in Canada were made by Pine Electronics in Quebec. They were transformerless point to point wired amps and I remember being barefoot on a cement floor and getting a huge shock when I touched my guitar. However, a properly designed amp with a SS preamp, single tube power section and 3 prong plug should be fine. Yes, I was referring to the old open ended design amps of yesteryear. I'm not actually sure how a single power tube would benefit a solid state amp however. It seems like the worst of both worlds to me. Unreliability of power tubes and no sound advantage of a preamp tube? I've never actually even seen a single power tube SS amp- can anyone name an example of one?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2021 2:51:10 GMT
I've never seen a single power tube amp....Lots of single preamp tube amps. My Vox VR-30R Valve Reactor series amp was a great piece. On the other handle, my Ampeg SVT-6Pro was an absolute stinker.
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Post by Die Bullen on Jun 8, 2021 11:09:52 GMT
I've never seen a single power tube amp....Lots of single preamp tube amps. My Vox VR-30R Valve Reactor series amp was a great piece. On the other handle, my Ampeg SVT-6Pro was an absolute stinker. Right, single preamp tubes are pretty common
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2021 17:58:49 GMT
I'm going to go ahead and get a single TAD 6L6WGC-STR so I can restore my Twin Reverb to a four power tube output. I just realized that I didn't mark the bad tube of the pair that's out, so I've appealed on Facebook for somebody in the area with a tube tester to test the pair for me. (No service shops in a 30 mile radius with a tube tester, so I'm hoping for a sympathetic musician). If I can determine which one's bad, I'll chuck it out and order a single....If I can't find anybody with a tube tester, I may have to order a matched pair. If I order a single, I'll send the company a picture of the label on the good tube I have and hope they'll know what's needed to get a close match.
(Edited to add:) well, Facebook won't run my ad, so I guess I'll end up having to buy a pair of tubes. This is the second time that Facebook's declined to run one of my ads because it "contravenes their policy". I think I'm done with Facebook Marketplace.
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Post by Die Bullen on Jun 12, 2021 18:29:38 GMT
I'm going to go ahead and get a single TAD 6L6WGC-STR so I can restore my Twin Reverb to a four power tube output. I just realized that I didn't mark the bad tube of the pair that's out, so I've appealed on Facebook for somebody in the area with a tube tester to test the pair for me. (No service shops in a 30 mile radius with a tube tester, so I'm hoping for a sympathetic musician). If I can determine which one's bad, I'll chuck it out and order a single....If I can't find anybody with a tube tester, I may have to order a matched pair. If I order a single, I'll send the company a picture of the label on the good tube I have and hope they'll know what's needed to get a close match.
(Edited to add:) well, Facebook won't run my ad, so I guess I'll end up having to buy a pair of tubes. This is the second time that Facebook's declined to run one of my ads because it "contravenes their policy". I think I'm done with Facebook Marketplace.
How weird... Honestly I think you are better off with a pair anyway. BTW couldn't you just put the new tube in the circuit with one of the old ones? If it sounds bad you will know which tube is the offender- if it doesn't, just swap out the good old tube and verify worth the other old one. Although if you do this is still suggest saving the old tubes so someone can determine which one the bad one is
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Post by infant on Jun 12, 2021 21:50:54 GMT
I'm going to go ahead and get a single TAD 6L6WGC-STR so I can restore my Twin Reverb to a four power tube output. I just realized that I didn't mark the bad tube of the pair that's out, so I've appealed on Facebook for somebody in the area with a tube tester to test the pair for me. (No service shops in a 30 mile radius with a tube tester, so I'm hoping for a sympathetic musician). If I can determine which one's bad, I'll chuck it out and order a single....If I can't find anybody with a tube tester, I may have to order a matched pair. If I order a single, I'll send the company a picture of the label on the good tube I have and hope they'll know what's needed to get a close match.
(Edited to add:) well, Facebook won't run my ad, so I guess I'll end up having to buy a pair of tubes. This is the second time that Facebook's declined to run one of my ads because it "contravenes their policy". I think I'm done with Facebook Marketplace.
You should reply back to them with what it is that you are trying to do. I had put a wine bottle corker and bottle drying rack under a title of “winemaking supplies” and I received the same response from them as it contravened their policy. I think they thought I was selling wine. So I responded back to them that I am only selling a bottle corker and a drying rack for bottles. Within a day, it was posted. You should also put your ad on Kijiji and also look to see if any repair guys are posting on there. They may have a tube tester. However, like DB said, you can mount the new tube and one of the old tubes and determine for yourself. If you are using it with only 2 tubes right now, replace one of the 2 tubes with each of the spares. Surely one of the two configurations will sound worse and you can figure out which is the bad one. There had to be something that you noticed that made you pull those tubes.
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